topic Re: Just throwing this out there... in Project data & BIM

Just throwing this out there...

Laura Yanoviak — Thu, 13 Nov 2008 19:19:18 GMT

Our firm decided to move to ArchiCAD 4 years ago now, and implementation started 3 1/2 years ago. Everyone has been trained (50 or so employees -- due to layoffs over the summer, we are now down to 20 users), and 100% of our current projects are on ArchiCAD.

So, the PAs (Project Architects) of my firm were called into the conference room this morning and asked how to improve the inefficiency we've been experiencing over the past 6 months. One solution was to become a 'hybrid office' and leave it up to the PAs whether to use ArchiCAD or AutoCAD for production.

I said this would be a disaster... what do y'all think?

Re: Just throwing this out there...

Anonymous — Thu, 13 Nov 2008 19:34:20 GMT

Sounds like Alan Greenspan opinion about the financial market... "Let the market regulate itself!..."

Re: Just throwing this out there...

Karl Ottenstein — Thu, 13 Nov 2008 19:42:40 GMT

Laura wrote:
Everyone has been trained (50 or so employees -- due to layoffs over the summer, we are now down to 20 users)

That has to be emotionally painful for those gone and those still there ... but the 30 trained at your firm's expense may be snapped up by other firms who were desperately looking for ArchiCAD-experienced people before the economic meltdown happened. When things do recover, the smart firms will bounce back the fastest.

So, the PAs (Project Architects) of my firm were called into the conference room this morning and asked how to improve the inefficiency we've been experiencing over the past 6 months. One solution was to become a 'hybrid office' and leave it up to the PAs whether to use ArchiCAD or AutoCAD for production.

I said this would be a disaster... what do y'all think?

Hmmm. How do you spell 'idiots'. The more important question is, what do the partners/owners think, or are they out of day-to-day management?

Good luck!

Karl

Re: Just throwing this out there...

Aaron Bourgoin — Thu, 13 Nov 2008 19:44:50 GMT

Imlementation is more about a mindset and less about a specific platform choice. Was there ever a conscious decision expressed to stop the use of ArchiCAD or has it been there in the background all along.

Its easier to blame the problem on the computer stuff than it is to really assess what the team needs to do to stay focused.

StrawCAD?

Re: Just throwing this out there...

Laura Yanoviak — Thu, 13 Nov 2008 20:07:31 GMT

Aaron wrote:
Imlementation is more about a mindset and less about a specific platform choice. Was there ever a conscious decision expressed to stop the use of ArchiCAD or has it been there in the background all along.

Are you referring to ArchiCAD or AutoCAD? My response is that if anything is holding us back, it's been the AutoCAD crutch. The PAs have been the most resistive to being trained and actually using the software -- this is the disconnect. As we all know, the BIM paradigm calls for a different process than the traditional design-and-draft scenario -- without the PAs in the loop, the prioritization of tasks is all wrong.

The insistence to use ACAD on a last few remaining projects has hurt us as well -- AC trained and competent staff being put on ACAD projects, and all that training going out the window -- and then needing to be retrained! Uggh... I could go on and on...

Re: Just throwing this out there...

Erika Epstein — Thu, 13 Nov 2008 21:26:21 GMT

Hi Laura,
Sorry to hear all this.
What were the 'inefficiencies' you mentioned? Were the listed, discussed and adressed? Two programs could easily lead to more problems. It sounds like some of the staff didn't fully embrace Archicad. Is their discord part of the 'inefficiencies'?.

I doubt turning PAs loose to choose their own programs will really help. Staff woud then have to know two programs well, not just one.
Is management really looking down the road to consequences of this decision?

How disheartening for you after all your efforts and successes with archicad. What does this mean for you?

Good luck!

Re: Just throwing this out there...

Laura Yanoviak — Thu, 13 Nov 2008 21:54:06 GMT

The first thing I asked was "define inefficiencies" -- apparently, it's people spending too much time on tasks (exceeding fee) mixed with recording too much general office (non-billable) time. The answer is obvious: we need more billable work; however, in lieu of getting more work, what can be done?

I suspect BIM may becoming a scapegoat in these hard times. Implementation has not been easy, but at this point any inefficiencies are coming from people not understanding it, and certainly those not using it.

As for me, I don't plan on managing two different CAD applications, so they'd have to find someone willing to dedicate themselves to AutoCAD [good luck there].

Re: Just throwing this out there...

Stress Co_ — Fri, 14 Nov 2008 04:17:21 GMT

Laura wrote:
So, the PAs (Project Architects) of my firm were called into the conference room this morning and asked how to improve the inefficiency we've been experiencing over the past 6 months. One solution was to become a 'hybrid office' and leave it up to the PAs whether to use ArchiCAD or AutoCAD for production.

Another solution would be to hire new PAs well versed in (or willing to learn and use) ArchiCAD.

Re: Just throwing this out there...

Anonymous — Fri, 14 Nov 2008 04:17:29 GMT

Laura wrote:
I suspect BIM may becoming a scapegoat in these hard times. Implementation has not been easy, but at this point any inefficiencies are coming from people not understanding it, and certainly those not using it.

My own scenario was exactly the same just 6 weeks Ago
BIM was the scapegoat
Implementation had been bloody hard
All inefficiencies came from people not WANTING to understand the Process and those with NO intention of using it BACKED up by a (Architect/manager) who Hated It & just wanted to get the drawings out anyway he could in his efforts to take over the Hot Seat Position.

Time to Move ON

Re: Just throwing this out there...

Anonymous — Fri, 14 Nov 2008 04:32:14 GMT

In almost all corporate (group) decisions, it MUST be supported from the top down, or your dead.
Bier

Re: Just throwing this out there...

Anonymous — Fri, 14 Nov 2008 04:44:09 GMT

so any good example for a big archicad team can work perfectly?

i think good example would be encouraging.

Re: Just throwing this out there...

Dennis Lee — Fri, 14 Nov 2008 07:52:22 GMT

Why not fall back to doing 2D ArchiCAD first? The inefficiencies may be coming from not only the new BIM methodologies of the program itself, but also as someone mentioned, in people not knowing how to adjust to the new roles in a BIM environment. Probably a lot of those non-billable hours are coming from the PA's themselves, who suddenly find their control over every single line and ability to redmark somehow not the same as it has always been for them. They probably want to fight this feeling of losing control, and go back to the way they feel comfortable in.

So, let them have their 2D drawings to redmark all day long. Just do everything in ArchiCAD.

Re: Just throwing this out there...

Erika Epstein — Mon, 17 Nov 2008 06:11:47 GMT

Laura,
Your post has been on my mind the last few days. Again I am sorry to hear this news. The level you know and use archicad has been in inspiration to myself and I am sure many others.

I think management would be better off re-affirming their original directive to switch to archicad. With many out of work including the 30 you trained, perhaps the PA's' jobs should be tied to their knowing the office program?

On a more constructive note, have you listed what would be lost in productivity by going back to the other program for even some of the projects?

Their solution not only doesn't solve their problems but I think is going to add to them. People will compete, staff will now have to know two programs well...

Two competing cad programs in one office is not healthy.
Take care of yourself.

Re: Just throwing this out there...

Anonymous — Mon, 17 Nov 2008 10:32:11 GMT

One solution was to become a 'hybrid office' and leave it up to the PAs whether to use ArchiCAD or AutoCAD for production.

This is not a solution... I think that this 20 makes more sense... (Just to be constructive)
And I'm sure there is lots of other good ideas for improving an architectural practice...
Good vibes for you and your practice Laura.

Re: Just throwing this out there...

Nando Mogollon — Tue, 18 Nov 2008 17:34:19 GMT

Hi Laura and the rest of you ...

I think we are all very familiar with the problem. And i want to focus your attention in this 3 points:
1. The "classical" autocad resistance groups.
2. The skeptical senior architect(s)
3. The new BIM revolution.

1. The "classical" autocad resistance groups.
We all know that this is not a problem based on software, it's a problem based on the willing of change the methodology, based on the fear of something different. The fear is based on the predictability of your effort.( with a drafting board it's going to take me 3 months, with autocad 1 month, with BIM... have no idea..= panic)

2. The skeptical senior architect(s)
By the same Fear factor, lot of the senior architects barely know how to do some things in Autocad. But Autocad, and all the drafting based softwares, are just imitating the drafting board, so there is not a big challenge. Modeling construction elements is a completely different thing.

3. The new BIM revolution.
If it is not enough , in the last 5-3 years, we have experienced the BIM revolution, a term coined by Autodesk which have been more successful than the original Virtual Building from Graphisoft. Now we have to keep the pace of the I.P.D. and figure out how to share your information trough IFC or DWG, etc... and maybe this is the light at the end of the tunnel.

After all this words, i still think that Modeling a Virtual Building is the way to go( archicad, revit, bentley, and any other). Not just a dumb model (call it sketch up, Autocad, Zprofiler, etc)

But is going to be harder than the move from the paper to the CAD.... this is from the CAD to the Model...

We all suffer the same pain....
But we will success..

Muahaha.... Muahaha haha haha haha.... haha.

Regards

Nando

Re: Just throwing this out there...

Richard Morrison — Tue, 18 Nov 2008 17:45:01 GMT

Laura wrote:
The first thing I asked was "define inefficiencies" -- apparently, it's people spending too much time on tasks (exceeding fee) mixed with recording too much general office (non-billable) time. The answer is obvious: we need more billable work; however, in lieu of getting more work, what can be done?

It strikes me that an overabundance of non-billable time means that people are getting their project tasks done and then having nothing project-related to do, so they put their time into the "general" category. In effect, what this may be saying is that Archicad is TOO efficient. If you are billing by the hour, then efficiency is NOT a good thing -- you want the slowest possible production system that will still allow you stay within your maximum fee, if you have one.

It also occurs to me that people may be (subconsciously or not) dawdling so they don't run out of work, and suffer the fate of the other layoffs.

Maybe one strategy would be to go to a fixed price basis, so you can reward people (and the firm) for being more efficient.

Re: Just throwing this out there...

Anonymous — Tue, 18 Nov 2008 22:09:50 GMT

Laura,

Maybe you should talk to Aaron Jobson at QKA in Santa Rosa. I helped them make the transition from all AutoCAD to all ArchiCAD and they have done a fantastic job of it. In their case this was strongly supported from the top and the PAs have no choice but to go along with it.

This really isn't such a problem though, since the PAs aren't doing any of the production anyway. Do yours actually do drafting? The one way I can see a hybrid approach working is if the PAs feel the need to draw details, sketches, etc themselves, they can do it in whatever software they like (or even scan hand drawings) and then add them to layouts as needed. Otherwise they should just butt out and let the production staff zoom along in ArchiCAD.

We also put together an extensive company standards manual including special instructions for the PAs so they know how to manage ArchiCAD projects, review and mark-up drawings, what is reasonable to expect, etc.

I can probably put you in touch if that would be helpful.

Re: Just throwing this out there...

Anonymous — Wed, 19 Nov 2008 01:37:41 GMT

i saw some cases here worked well when they had a coach/ BIM manager/tutor, someone who can guide them transfer from other CAD to BIM.

Re: Just throwing this out there...

Laura Yanoviak — Wed, 19 Nov 2008 18:08:54 GMT

angus wrote:
i saw some cases here worked well when they had a coach/ BIM manager/tutor, someone who can guide them transfer from other CAD to BIM.

I am that person, and have had the advantage of being a full-time BIM Manager for the first 3 years of implementation. As far as I'm concerned, the implementation has been a success -- it's those who have not made the effort to embrace the change [who happen to be those not using the software] that are the obstacle.

Dennis wrote:
Why not fall back to doing 2D ArchiCAD first? The inefficiencies may be coming from not only the new BIM methodologies of the program itself, but also as someone mentioned, in people not knowing how to adjust to the new roles in a BIM environment. Probably a lot of those non-billable hours are coming from the PA's themselves, who suddenly find their control over every single line and ability to redmark somehow not the same as it has always been for them. They probably want to fight this feeling of losing control, and go back to the way they feel comfortable in.

So, let them have their 2D drawings to redmark all day long. Just do everything in ArchiCAD.

We tried this on a recent project; however, we quickly came to the conclusion that we would be much more efficient working in 3D. I have suggested sticking to 2D if it suits the project, but the PA can't make that call if they're not familiar with the BIM process.

NandoMogollon wrote:
1. The "classical" autocad resistance groups.
We all know that this is not a problem based on software, it's a problem based on the willing of change the methodology, based on the fear of something different. The fear is based on the predictability of your effort.( with a drafting board it's going to take me 3 months, with autocad 1 month, with BIM... have no idea..= panic)

2. The skeptical senior architect(s)
By the same Fear factor, lot of the senior architects barely know how to do some things in Autocad. But Autocad, and all the drafting based softwares, are just imitating the drafting board, so there is not a big challenge. Modeling construction elements is a completely different thing.

3. The new BIM revolution.
If it is not enough , in the last 5-3 years, we have experienced the BIM revolution, a term coined by Autodesk which have been more successful than the original Virtual Building from Graphisoft. Now we have to keep the pace of the I.P.D. and figure out how to share your information trough IFC or DWG, etc... and maybe this is the light at the end of the tunnel.

This is a very good breakdown of the challenges we face.

Matthew wrote:
This really isn't such a problem though, since the PAs aren't doing any of the production anyway. Do yours actually do drafting?

Most PAs "dabble" in ACAD -- I think it gives them a sense of control; however, they're really not considered part of the production team. I think they should understand the BIM process (at least how it differs from CAD), be able to manipulate through the model, and print -- beyond that, if they want to participate in the "drafting", they need to learn the program.

Thanks to everyone for their kind words and advise -- the jury is still out, but I will keep you posted...

Re: Just throwing this out there...

Anonymous — Thu, 20 Nov 2008 00:56:17 GMT

BIM and other matters - the 18th November 2008 issue (#581) of Ralph Grabowski's eZine includes an article by Architect Mark Chaney titled
A Few Comments to BIM Developers http://www.upfrontezine.com/current.htm#b

It is a quite cogent and insightful article on the realities of BIM rather than the hype. Well worth a read.