topic Re: Workstations in Project data & BIM

Workstations

Anonymous — Fri, 07 Apr 2006 02:16:57 GMT

Wow, what a great forum, i just realised this was here.

I have set up standards in our office for the last 5 years, 15 users and am now taking the time to seriously implement a very thorough template and procedural system so will let you know how it goes and hopefully get some advice.

My first port of call is the workstation configuration which could possible be posted in the hardware forum but i think cad managers generally have a big input into the configuration also. Has anyone spec'd new systems lately? Below is the spec i am looking at, any comments are welcome? Some of the spec has come about from peoples comments in the forums, particularly the video card.

Cpu : Pentium D Dual Core 930 3000 Mhz, 2 x 2048k l2 on-die cache,
800 Mhz fsb, socket 775, EM64T & XD (Intel)
Motherboard : Intel D945P chipset, 1s / 1p / 6usb2 port with
4 x SATA, udma & fdd controller on board (PSNLK Intel)
Memory : 2 x 1024m ddr2-533 PC-4200 (Kingston)
Video card : nVidia 512m 7900GTX PCIe video card
Monitor/s : 2 x 17" LG

Are people going with single cpu's or dual core?

Re: Workstations

Gerald Hoffman — Fri, 07 Apr 2006 15:26:40 GMT

Hi Mark,

I am not a CAD Manager in the same sense. I am only in charge of myself. I am also looking a a new hardware purchase and am definitely going with dual core. There are so many times when I am generating a section, elevation or doing a rendering when I just have to wait for my machine when I could be taking care of emails or something else so I think this is a no brainer. I would also recommend 4 GB ram. I have heard the new version of windows is going to take more that 500 MB just to load up.

Also the card you picked is a gaming card and would be probalby a good card. I would also look at Nvidias Quadro FX series which are tailored more for CAD work and might have better OpenGL implemtation. I also think your monitors are too small. You could use 1 17" if you want to cut down on cost for menus etc. but I think you want at least 20" for the main drawing window. I am looking at the 24" Dell monitor and I have a 20" now which is a bit small for me although I only have 1.

My 2 cents worth. Cheers,

Re: Workstations

Chadwick — Fri, 07 Apr 2006 19:12:01 GMT

I dont know how much you are willing to spend, but NVIDIA's Quadro series graphics cards are really good for CAD work and other modeling programs. I would try to stay away from gaming cards for cad work as I've been told they handle memory and display in different ways. Also, if you're looking into doing some really heavy lifting with your machine - BOXX makes some very nice workstations custom to the software you are using. www.boxxtech.com

Just a suggestion - hope it helps.

Re: Workstations

Anonymous — Sat, 08 Apr 2006 04:04:34 GMT

Thanks for the feeback. I think the current price of this spec is probably as high as i want to go so any improved components would mean reducing it somewhere else.

CPU. Looks like i will stick with Dual core. So lock it in!

Screens. I currently have 2 x 17"LCD screens on my workstation, it would be nice to have 19, 20, or 21... but overall i think this is a nice economical setup.

Memory. Interested Gerald you are going for 4gb RAM. Have you monitored how often it is really used. I would be interested to know.

Video Card. This is a hard one as there are so many choices. After your comments Chadwick i researched further workstation cards. The Nvidia Quadro FX 1400 is comparably in price to the card i listed before, nVidia 512m 7900GTX and has got some good reviews. I dont want to spend more $$ than this. Although Nvidia state is is tailor made for CAD stations i cant quite see how it is better, not that i know that much about the definitions of the different specs anyway but... just some comparisons below of what i think are the main ones

7900GTX
Memory 512mb
Memory Interface 256-bit
Memory Bandwidth 51.2 GB/sec
Fill rate 15.6 billion/sec

Quadro FX 1400
Memory 128mb
Memory Interface 256-bit
Memory Bandwidth 27.2 GB/sec
Fill rate 2.8 billion/sec

I guess i am missing some of the more important specs?

Re: Workstations

Chadwick — Sat, 08 Apr 2006 12:46:15 GMT

An interesting point about the memory is that right now ArchiCAD can only utilize 2GB of memory max on windows XP. On a mac, it can go up to 4GB. I dont know if this is going to change for future releases of ArchiCAD or not but its definatley something to consider when you would be dropping an addition 300.00 or so for the 4GB or RAM.

Re: Workstations

Anonymous — Sat, 08 Apr 2006 16:00:06 GMT

I realize that most of the discussion is about windows boxes, but after the second switch you might consider Macs ( depending on timing) as the possibility for dual boot systems is somewhere in the short future. In our office system - almost all MACs - the work flow is somewhat simpler. Since there doesn't seem to be any really great speed improvements over the last couple of years, the systems on both sides are competitive. If Vista is delayed as it seems to be, there is a reason to explore all possibilities. Especially in the total cost of ownership and the ongoing cost of maintainance.

We are currently using dual G5's with a lot of memory and a very fast network that is productive. The necessity for big video cards seems to be less of a mandatory requirement than the amount of system memory, unless you are rendering almost every day. For a machine to do that -- load it to the hilt - for the "normal" machine it is less critical. I guess that there are so many other parts of the productivity story that individual machine configuration seems less important.

Lew Bishop
AC 9 2219 US
OS X 10.6
Dual 2..0/ 4GB/ NVidia 6800 Gigabit ethernet

Re: Workstations

Anonymous — Sat, 08 Apr 2006 16:50:50 GMT

When choosing display cards be sure to check out the compatibility database here

Display glitches and anomalies are much bigger productivity issues than OpenGL performance. I have a client who has one computer that loses the rubber band feedback after a while. We have yet to sort it out but it looks like a driver update may fix it since newer machines with the same card aren't having the problem.

Re: Workstations

Anonymous — Mon, 17 Apr 2006 18:43:38 GMT

Mark wrote:
Memory. Interested Gerald you are going for 4gb RAM. Have you monitored how often it is really used. I would be interested to know.

I did a memory test a few weeks ago and the results are in the attached justification letter I sent to my bosses. You will notice that when I did an update in PlotMaker, my total RAM use went to 2.5Gig. If I had had Word, Outlook, and FireFox running, that number would have been even higher. Get as much RAM as you can -- my company is upgrading to 3Gig.

Re: Workstations

Gerald Hoffman — Tue, 18 Apr 2006 16:07:57 GMT

Hi Jay,

My thinking for 4 GB of RAM is that with a Dual Core processor each would only have access to 2 GB which is I believe a minimum requirement for me. I don't know if the RAM is split this way between the 2 processor cores but this is my strong suspicion.

I only have 1 GB now and am constantly hitting the no fly zone. I would think it would depend on the size of projects that you would typically be working on. Mine are fairly elaborate 7+ story condominiums with lots of railings and trim detailing. Whenever I do a rendering or even Elevations and Sections sometimes, I hit the ceiling and the computer goes into the swap file on the hard drive. It of course slows down to a relative crawl. I am thinking with a dual core processor I can do some multitasking while this is going on because I really hate (perhaps to strong a word) waiting for the computer.

Another thing I suspect is that ArchiCAD does not release the RAM very well after operations. I have noticed that if you are working using the 3D window to check design fairly often, that the program shows a building up of allocated RAM. I don't know if this is avoidable or not. Extra RAM also makes having more that one instance of ArchiCAD open along with Plotmaker more doable.

This of course is what keeps us all on the upgrade treadmill. N'est-il pas ?

Re: Workstations

Anonymous — Tue, 18 Apr 2006 23:23:38 GMT

Jay wrote:
I did a memory test a few weeks ago and the results are in the attached justification letter I sent to my bosses. ....

Thanks Jay, thats a nice little letter you put together there. I will have to investigate this further. Looks like 2 gig is a definate minimum and will look at putting 3 or 4 gig in aswell.

Out of interest were the 2 machines the same configuration, except for the ram?

Re: Workstations

Anonymous — Tue, 18 Apr 2006 23:28:55 GMT

Mark wrote:
Out of interest were the 2 machines the same configuration, except for the ram?

It was the same machine -- we just added the RAM for the second pair of tests. The PLN and LBK were also identical.

Re: Workstations

Anonymous — Wed, 19 Apr 2006 01:07:56 GMT

Thanks guys for all the new info - It has made me tre-think the configurations that were thought to be "killer" just recently. we upgraded the machine that I use (a Dual 2GHz G5 w/ 4GB of ram and a very fast nVidia 6800) it seems with the current project the machine and opsys along with the current AC creates some real slowdowns in the regeneration of elevations and sections. This seems to be the most draining of all ops. Today a rebuild of all elevs and sections some 20 or so the time was for me painful. Over an hour and a half. The min ram seems to be in the 4GB range but even with this amount, the time of some operations is really slow.

Following Tom Waltz's suggestions on network improvements, we improved the system substantially but it still bogs during some operations - which we hope will be helped by improvements in file size in the next release.

if any of you have other tweaks that can be incorporated, please post them up. We should be considering other improvements in our systems, including upgrades to Intel boxes when AC gets to universal.

Lew Bishop
AC 9 2219US
OS X 10.4.6
Dual 2GHz G5/4GB Ram/nVidia 6800-256 (2) 20" Cinemas

Re: Workstations

Anonymous — Wed, 10 May 2006 16:14:39 GMT

I hope I'm posting in the right place. I work for a small firm in England and we have 6 macs currently running Archicad 9. we have a contract with our supplier for upgrades as part of our maintenance contract with them. As Archicad 10 is closing in on us, i am looking for a bit of advice on whether the current workstations we use will be capable of using it. We unfortunately cannot make any hardware upgrades for at least another year.

Workstations all running Mac OSX 10.3.9.

3x IMac G4's 1Ghz. with 768mb PC2100 ram and 64mb Geforce Mx graphics cards.

1x Power PC G4 1.25GHZ (tower case) with 768mb PC2700 ram and 64mb ATi graphics card.

1x Emac G4 1.25ghz with 768mb PC2700 ram and 32mb ATI graphics card.

1x G5 Imac 1.8ghz with 1mb PC3200 ram and 128mb ATI Radeon 9600 graphics card

All computers run Archicad 9 well and only the 3 G4 Imacs slow down with more complex 3D models. Our work covers small projects nothing too taxing, with average files of around 4-10mb and plot books of about 40mb. we rarely do fly throughs or hi-def 3D renders as our client base do not require this.

We run on a simple network and each machine has its own USB dongle wibukey. Our company has also used Archicad since 1990 on a mac and we would still like to stay on the mac fomat, although admitedly i understand PCs alot more.

From the above specs which computers will have a chance of running the new Archicad 10 and what is the recommended specification of machine (for macs) to run it?

Your advice would be much appreciated.

Re: Workstations

Anonymous — Wed, 10 May 2006 16:28:37 GMT

Chadwick wrote:
An interesting point about the memory is that right now ArchiCAD can only utilize 2GB of memory max on windows XP. On a mac, it can go up to 4GB. I dont know if this is going to change for future releases of ArchiCAD or not but its definatley something to consider when you would be dropping an addition 300.00 or so for the 4GB or RAM.

I'm not sure how it works for a pc, but the Mac I use 9 on at work (G4 tower 1.25ghz 768ram and 64mb graphics) it has 4GB virtual memory as standard set, Using mem manager on the mac to record usage, even doing a render it hasn't reached past 2.5gb memory usage with a 2 story factory unit with some complex machinery, 3D furniture, billboard people and lighting effects (this has been my most taxing model to date) this is with only 768mb physical memory and 64mb on a graphics card in openGL mode.

Re: Workstations

Anonymous — Wed, 10 May 2006 17:28:34 GMT

Chadwick wrote:
...ArchiCAD can only utilize 2GB of memory max on windows XP.

If I'm not mistaken, that's 2GB per program instance. So if you have PlotMaker and ArchiCAD running at the same time, that's two program instances that could use a total of 4GB. Also, if PlotMaker launched ArchiCAD in the background, wouldn't that be two program instances?

The OS itself takes a significant amount of run just to get started. Then there is all the other stuff that might be running: email programs, web browsers, and of course, something to play your tunes.

Based on this, my strategy is to get as much RAM as I can because there are plenty of instances where it all will be used.

Re: Workstations

Anonymous — Wed, 10 May 2006 21:15:12 GMT

2 GB is a nice amount but it is not required by default. It depends what size, and how complicated project you are working on. I was working on pretty big residential projects (5000~10000 sqft and up) with a lot of details, and I was able to run 2-3 instances of AC and PM at the same time (with some other software in a background) on a machine with 1 BG of RAM. Big issue is to load only those libraries you really need, especially textures. My current Library is about 4 GB, and I'm not even thinking about loading it at the same time. Good management of libraries, running services, keeping system clean is a key to success." dialog box.

Re: Workstations

Thomas Holm — Sat, 13 May 2006 16:01:11 GMT

Organicsabre wrote:
From the above specs which computers will have a chance of running the new Archicad 10 and what is the recommended specification of machine (for macs) to run it?

I've been betatesting Archicad 10 on the hardware that shows in my signature. If there is a difference vs. AC9, my feeling (not scientific) is that Ac10 is more responsive. The internal rendering engine (which is responsible for sections and elevations at leaset, even if you don't use it in the 3D window) has got an overhaul and is absolutely better and I think also faster than before. The OpenGL environment is better with the new Orbit and Explore tools, but that's mostly dependant on your graphics card.

I think that your machines are up to AC10 (even if I'm not sure about the Emac's graphics). However, I would strongly advice to upgrade to OSX 10.4 on the workstations at least (not as necessary on the server). There are several improvements there that Archicad will take advantage of, especially in graphics and networking. I'd also recommend that you upgrade the memory to at least 1GB in all the machines.

That done, I think you have all you need to keep Archicad 10 running well until you can upgrade to the coming Intel workstations!

Re: Workstations

Anonymous — Mon, 15 May 2006 07:31:37 GMT

Thank you Thomas for your comments. I have looked into the memory upgrade, but 4 out of the 6 machines can only support max 1 GB and it means replacing the 512 stick with a 768mb one, not an easy job I can tell you. I have had to take apart one of the Imacs when the Harddrive went caput, and to be honest with years of building pc's for myself, this was a new experience!! You wouldn't believe how compact everything is and how it all stacks (i.e. you have to remove the CD drive to get at the Harddisk and motherboard!) it is because of this when i specked my mac 3 years ago i went for the G4 tower, much easier to work on and good expansion aspects. I understand from our suppliers that Archicad 10 is going to integrate plotmaker into the archicad program itself, will this mean it requires more processor and memory power?

My main problem is that I do not run the company, so my hands are not on the purse strings. I think this is quite common to alot of cad managers where you need something to "improve' the system, the hard bit is trying to explain this to the powers that be that it is worth spending the money. At the moment we have 3 of the machines on finance so its difficult to cancel the contract without having to pay off a large amount. This ends in june next year where we can keep the machines. at this point I am looking at replacing 4 of them on the finance deal, as its hard to find £10,000 at once to fund the replacements. I would like to steer the company to pc's, but that is doubtful as the directors use macs at home. The reason for me wanting to go to PC's is I have alot more knowledge of them and also I would be able to build a decent system for alot less than buying a purpose made one.

As for the Intel macs, over the last few months I have been monitoring benchmark tests etc. and they have compared the dual core intel chip with the dual core G5 chip. The G5 chip still beats it hands down in program opening, rendering a short film etc. so no I wouldn't step to the intel version if were keeping with macs, we will be buying "pure mac" as the performance is more stable.

Re: Workstations

Thomas Holm — Mon, 15 May 2006 11:27:19 GMT

OK. just skip the memory upgrade then. It's all just a question of priority. As long as you don't run several applications at once, and the projects aren't too big, 768K will probably do.
I'd suggest you get an AC10 time-limited key and test it when it's released.

But don't buy PowerPCMacs now! AC10 will be out in an native Macintel version this year too (probably a couple of months behind the PPC release) and Apple will release new workstations this fall, probably in August and containing the even faster Core2Duo processor. If you can live with what you've got for half a year more, I'd say it's a waste of money to buy PPC now.

Re: Workstations

Anonymous — Wed, 07 Jun 2006 23:35:52 GMT

Well i thought i better let everyone know what i eventually specificied for our workstations after starting this topic. more por PC users. FYI

mBtx midi tower with 400w power supply (Macron Black)
Cpu : Pentium D Dual Core 930 3000 Mhz, 2 x 2048k l2 on-die cache,
800 Mhz fsb, socket 775, EM64T & XD (Intel)
Motherboard : Intel D945P chipset, 1s / 1p / 6usb2 port with
4 x SATA, udma & fdd controller on board (PSNLK Intel)
Memory : 3 x 1024m ddr2-533 PC-4200 (Kingston)
Video card : nVidia 256m FX1500
Monitor/s : 2 x 17" LG

The configuration is very good. I am finding the dual core very handy, having 2 ArchiCADs open or ArchiCAD and Plotmaker open with both of them never slowing down. Even 3-4 ArchiCADs open is very nice, i flick between the applications very east and have one generating elevations and the other drawing in plan.

With the video card, the card is the first workstation card i have bought. It has only just come on the market (at least here) and is the same quality of ones that used to sell for double the price. Costs around AU$950 and a card with similar specs, also nvidia, used to cost $2000. It flys in 3d opengl, i havnt seen it slow yet!, and is the first card i could set to opengl in 2d aswell which runs fairly smooth when you take into account the larger jobs i am working on.

RAM, well.. I have noted differeing opinions on whether ArchiCAD or Plotmaker can use more than 2gb. I have yet to see it go above 2gb when i monitored it. However it is definately used to it full potential in photoshop and other rendering packages. Well worth have 3-4gb i think for such a small price these days.

Lastly the case. Although the case looks are fairly standard it is a very nice case inside, with very good air circulation to keep the computer running full speed without getting hot. Very easy to change components also.

Hope this helps others for future systems.