topic Re: Comprehensive Electrical ISS and custom symbols... in Project data & BIM

Comprehensive Electrical ISS and custom symbols...

Andy Thomson — Wed, 22 Nov 2006 22:34:10 GMT

Here at Altius we are just finding a need to have a faster, smarter way of doing electrical schedules. We are considering some kind of meta-part/object that can take whatever name/polygon boundary we need, where the object ID can read from the centre of the object, and be called in the ISS.

I have all the standard NCS, and Cadimage symbols, but they are mere 'dumb' symbols, or not graphically representative of conventions in the US and Canada. Can anyone recommend an approach, object, or scheduling methodology?

This is primarily for large, high-end residential, but also hi-rise residential work....

A

Re: Comprehensive Electrical ISS and custom symbols...

__archiben — Wed, 22 Nov 2006 22:59:55 GMT

andyro wrote:
... and Cadimage symbols, but they are mere 'dumb' symbols, or not graphically representative of conventions in the US and Canada.

are you looking at the cadimage rapid details 3 elements? there are two objects: one containing all electrical parts that allows symbol creation and editing, the other is a schedule element that reads all of the various placed symbols in the above....

i haven't played with it much, but it looks as though you could make your own symbol variants . . . or indeed 'random things'

any use?
ben

Re: Comprehensive Electrical ISS and custom symbols...

Anonymous — Wed, 22 Nov 2006 23:02:05 GMT

andyro wrote:
Here at Altius we are just finding a need to have a faster, smarter way of doing electrical schedules. We are considering some kind of meta-part/object that can take whatever name/polygon boundary we need, where the object ID can read from the centre of the object, and be called in the ISS.

I have all the standard NCS, and Cadimage symbols, but they are mere 'dumb' symbols, or not graphically representative of conventions in the US and Canada. Can anyone recommend an approach, object, or scheduling methodology?

This is primarily for large, high-end residential, but also hi-rise residential work....

A

I'm not sure I understand what you are looking for. The polygon meta-tool sounds like a zone. Is the idea to schedule the electrical bits in each room? You should be able to do this with zones; maybe even with the dumb parts you already have. I've done some work on this in the past and may be able to help if I have a clearer idea of what you are after.

Re: Comprehensive Electrical ISS and custom symbols...

__archiben — Wed, 22 Nov 2006 23:03:19 GMT

symbol setup and variants -->

Re: Comprehensive Electrical ISS and custom symbols...

__archiben — Wed, 22 Nov 2006 23:04:41 GMT

and the schedule -->

Re: Comprehensive Electrical ISS and custom symbols...

TomWaltz — Thu, 23 Nov 2006 00:13:56 GMT

I would think you would need to make most of these parameters of the objects and the label seen in plan would be almost incidental, since you cannot schedule the label itself.... unless I'm misunderstanding you.

Re: Comprehensive Electrical ISS and custom symbols...

Andy Thomson — Thu, 23 Nov 2006 01:58:57 GMT

I will post the key and a sample ISS tomorrow to give a sense of what we are trying to develop. The object(s) placed to indicate various fixtures need only be a graphic representation with an ID.

I have seen the rapid detailer object and schedule, but it is not especially helpful for us unfortunately....I will also send a screenshot of the absolutely crazy 1950's playboy-mansion-type building we are renovating, such that we need such a workflow. I have never seen so many switches in my life.

It does look like your cadimage random thing is an upgrade of the one I have, will need to download and take a look - but are you actually using it??

Re: Comprehensive Electrical ISS and custom symbols...

LiHigh — Thu, 23 Nov 2006 10:22:39 GMT

Andy,

If I understand u Correctly, a simple GDL obj using "FRAGMENT2" & pre-defined device name would do the job.....

Re: Comprehensive Electrical ISS and custom symbols...

Andy Thomson — Thu, 23 Nov 2006 18:00:57 GMT

This is what we want the object to be able to do....basically, be a multifunctional, single object. We will do a separate ISS for switches, lights and other stuff (speakers, HRV, etc) The screenshot is merely a representation of the different states of the same object.

The names/ID, ie. 'XENON' are just simply typed into the ID field in the infobox, switches are simply typed in as $$$ (for three gang) in the same ID field. In this case, '$$$$$$18' refers to a particular switch in the schedule, 18, which may be an additional field, just custom text called 'model' or something

Re: Comprehensive Electrical ISS and custom symbols...

Anonymous — Thu, 23 Nov 2006 19:09:35 GMT

I think you would be better off with a few simple parts rather than a single all purpose one. I have always found that this saves both in the writing of the parts and in the using of them. It seems that what you want is fairly easily accomplished.

Re: Comprehensive Electrical ISS and custom symbols...

__archiben — Thu, 23 Nov 2006 22:33:15 GMT

andyro wrote:
It does look like your cadimage random thing is an upgrade of the one I have, will need to download and take a look - but are you actually using it??

not yet! i'm slowly introducing the cadimage tools into the workflow and updating a template as i'm going. it falls to me to make these things work, so the next time i do a power/lighting layout and schedule will be the time i use them, get them set up the way we want and update the template accordingly.

it does look like you're after something far more complex in its representation, but the functionality you're describing is very similar. you guys are big cadimage users aren't you? why not put a request through to them - see if they can't update their detailer objects to do what you want?

cheers
ben

Re: Comprehensive Electrical ISS and custom symbols...

davide — Tue, 28 Nov 2006 09:21:45 GMT

Where i can find , in archicad library, the eletrical schedule and the eletrical symbol 2? thanks davide

Re: Comprehensive Electrical ISS and custom symbols...

Laszlo Nagy — Tue, 28 Nov 2006 11:54:04 GMT

In the INT version electric sybols are at:

Archicad Library 10\Archicad Library 10.lcf\Object Library 10\1. BASIC LIBRARY 10\1.7 2D Elements 10\Electric Symbols 10

Re: Comprehensive Electrical ISS and custom symbols...

davide — Tue, 28 Nov 2006 12:27:16 GMT

I know. I mean the object in the pictures posted by archiben from new zealand. thanks

Re: Comprehensive Electrical ISS and custom symbols...

__archiben — Tue, 28 Nov 2006 20:14:05 GMT

davide wrote:
I know. I mean the object in the pictures posted by archiben from new zealand. thanks

they are a part of the 'rapid detailer 3' tool pack from cadimage...

http://www.cadimagetools.com/home.php?page=products&productID=160

Re: Comprehensive Electrical ISS and custom symbols...

Andy Thomson — Thu, 08 Feb 2007 13:30:20 GMT

Just posted for download last night:

http://www.archicad.ca/?p=52

The object I wished I had 2 years ago!!

Re: Comprehensive Electrical ISS and custom symbols...

Chazz — Thu, 08 Feb 2007 14:52:11 GMT

The Eletrigon object family is fantastic and and the decision to make it available to the community is laudable. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.

However, isn't this all sort of anti-BIM?

Call me old fashion, but my electrical holy grail includes parts that display flexibly in 2D and schedule intelligently but that also display realistically in 3D.

Having switches, outlets, etc. that elevate accurately is a big help in finding conflicts. I have always wondered why the standard AC lib does not include this functionality out of the box. Am I crazy?

Re: Comprehensive Electrical ISS and custom symbols...

Andy Thomson — Thu, 08 Feb 2007 15:04:46 GMT

You are absolutely not crazy. It is stupid to have 2 sets of lights, some for rendering, others for scheduling, as it creates 2x the work. Our decision not to enable 3D light and switch features to this object yet is because:

A) Rendering in AC, while better than ever, is still sub-optimal
B) GDL lights are kinda weak, in terms of their quality
C) "...under the Atkinson Doctrine, you shouldn't use the project's 'real' lights to illuminate a rendering..." - I disagree here, but Dwight has good reasons.
D) Differentiation between Sconce, uplight, downlight, general, etc. is required. This leads to a messy profusion of objects, where we wanted to keep it simple.

The longer term plan is to implement a 3D aspect to this, but we don't want the object to become too heavy, and it would be nice to keep it all under a couple of subtypes, with 2 or 3 objects.

Since GS has abandoned further development (Radiosity) in their rendering, we didn't feel like going whole hog - yet.

I absolutely agree that BIM = Real Representation, Scheduling, etc. AC is simply not 100% there yet. If there is a real demand for this kind of functionality, I would propose to GS to include the ElectriGon in their GDL lights for the next release...

Re: Comprehensive Electrical ISS and custom symbols...

Anonymous — Thu, 08 Feb 2007 15:26:07 GMT

...and very often all that is needed is simple 2D electrical plans. I don't believe that BIM means that everything should be modeled whether it is needed or not. Most of my clients rarely (if ever) render interiors so the overhead of managing the 3D aspect would a wasted effort.

This is not to say that a 3D option would not be welcome. Elevating switch and receptacle layouts can be very helpful, many light fixtures do need to appear in sections and elevations, and, while I generally agree with Dwight about lighting the interior renderings, it does help to have the fixtures present and appear to glow.

Many thanks to James and Andy for making these bits available. I haven't actually tried them yet but I know these guys' high standards and look forward to putting these parts to work.

Re: Comprehensive Electrical ISS and custom symbols...

James Murray — Thu, 08 Feb 2007 16:43:58 GMT

First revision/fix is up. (Added some hotspots.)

www.archicad.ca/?p=52