topic Where Did You Get Your Layers? in Project data & BIM

Where Did You Get Your Layers?

James Murray — Tue, 30 May 2023 11:06:57 GMT

Do you use NCS layers? Did you (or your office) make your layers up? Did a consultant or training person help you set them up?

Have you had life-saving experiences connected with the use of NCS? Have you had near-death experiences associated with not using NCS?

We use a consultant-started (hi Matt), home grown system, whose general scheme has not changed since 5.1. It works very well for us, we're used to it, it's flexible, and we haven't had big problems with other disciplines.

The look and feel of NCS layers bugs me quite a bit, if it's still permitted to have an opinion about such things. Why can't ACAD accept spaces and lowercase instead of us having to accept not accepting spaces and lowercase? Never mind.

Still, I'm generally in favor of standards, willing to sacrifice some freedom and individuality in order to be clear, consistent, and easy to work with. I also think that AC users need to work harder to get along precisely because we're not part of the monoculture, not unlike a certain long-in-single-digit-market-share personal computer company.

Looking very far ahead, I am considering moving to NCS when we revise our standards for AC9. As with any standards change, the benefits have to outweigh the transition costs. Right now overhauling layers is prohibitive because of the limitations of the layer management interface. Any overhaul would be contingent on the layer tools being vastly improved in AC9.

Unless somebody out there can convince me it's worth it even at the prohibitive cost level. What's your experience with this issue? Are the standards truly standard yet?

PS, You can have my pen settings when you pry them from my cold dead fingers.

Re: Where Did You Get Your Layers?

Petros Ioannou — Mon, 22 Mar 2004 14:55:21 GMT

Quite a big topic opened! Being a european citizen and trying to find my way into the world layer chaos (ISO, ANSI,NCS etc) the only thing I found was that most if not all layering systems provided by organizations were 2d (mostly autocad) based. This leads to a layering systems that are partially incombatible with Archicad (five layers for a window is of no use in AC).So I think that standards should move to new directions with the increasing BIM industry and the object technology that AC uses.

Re: Where Did You Get Your Layers?

Anonymous — Mon, 22 Mar 2004 17:39:36 GMT

I voted "Other, discuss" because I am one of those consultants who has helped others (hi James) set up their layer systems.

Presently I am steering people toward adapting the NCS to their needs. It is much improved over the AIA guidelines on which it is based. It still has the AutoCAD-centric flavor and is not really tuned to the Virtual Building process, but I have found it reasonably easy to adapt and still keep to the intent of the system. I think there is a significant advantage to using the standard as long as it can be done without compromising your process.

Keep in mind that the NCS layers are guidelines and are unlikely to be adopted to the letter by a majority of firms. So there will always be some degree of translation needed. It is useful to stick with the intent of the system since this helps make it more familiar to more users which will ultimately make things easier for all of us.

James,

I, for one, can't see any reason for you to change your layering before better tools become available. The adaptations that I make to the NCS are to get it to work like your system, so there is no gain there. For file exchange compatibility you can always set up an NCS DWG translator to map them. But, I haven't seen that many consultants adopting the NCS layers yet, so I don't think there is much there either.

Re: Where Did You Get Your Layers?

Anonymous — Mon, 22 Mar 2004 19:20:38 GMT

Since I am rather new at this and was looking for a quick way to get productive, I ended up using the free templates (along with standards and layer settings) that were put out by Rex Maximillian (www.maxats.com). I have since modified them slightly, but haven't had the time for a full-out customization. Maybe after I take a closer look at the NCS... ?

Re: Where Did You Get Your Layers?

tsturm — Mon, 22 Mar 2004 22:05:02 GMT

Our office recently took a project and renamed all the layers to the standard of NCS/Uniformat system. A for Architectural, C for Civil, P for Plumbing and etc....

We would this to be a faster way to find the Architectural elements after we have imported a consultant's drawings, such as surveyor.

Our system prior was working fine, but now we can find A-Wall layers faster from the C-Walls.

It has also helped us on this project to separate out the different walls such as A-Wall-Ext, A-Wall-Int-Bear, A-Wall-Int-Non, A-Wall-Int-Knee

HTH

Re: Where Did You Get Your Layers?

fuzzytnth3 — Mon, 29 Mar 2004 12:39:45 GMT

Our system is based on cisfb system but amended to have a descriptive word as well as the reference number in the layer name.

Main reason we use this sytem is that most Product selector catalogues in the UK index the products using the same system so you quickly learn that External walls are 21 for example. The cisfb system uses reference letters for consultants as well so all our layer names are prefixed with A and imported data from say the structural engineer are prefixed S

So a wall drawn by us would have the layer name A-21-Ext-Wall

Re: Where Did You Get Your Layers?

Miquel Garcia — Mon, 29 Mar 2004 22:00:08 GMT

Where can I find information about NCS layers?

Re: Where Did You Get Your Layers?

Anonymous — Mon, 29 Mar 2004 22:21:49 GMT

There are NCS templates included in the US localization. I don't know if there are copyright or other issues about getting them in Barcelona, but I'm pretty sure there aren't. Perhaps Graphisoft should post the templates for download.

Re: Where Did You Get Your Layers?

Petros Ioannou — Mon, 29 Mar 2004 22:36:27 GMT

there is inside Program files/Archicadx.x/ArchiCAD Templates/DXF-DWG Layer Templates a template named AIA_Long_Format. Is this based on the NCS?

Petros

Re: Where Did You Get Your Layers?

Miquel Garcia — Mon, 29 Mar 2004 22:39:33 GMT

Matthew wrote:
There are NCS templates included in the US localization. Perhaps Graphisoft should post the templates for download.

This would help, of course. Our problem is that here in Spain people are not concerned about standards. We have our own (incomplete) layer system and I am trying to improve it.

Thank you Matthew !

Re: Where Did You Get Your Layers?

Dave Jochum — Tue, 30 Mar 2004 04:03:37 GMT

What's missing from this discussion is reference to building type, project size, project team size, and required degree of compatibility with consultants. These will all have a bearing on what layer system will work best. I consider myself fortunate in this regard, as I deal mostly with residential projects, only a few consultants (typically), and am the entire project team in my office. A slightly adapted version of the MaxATS templates works well for me. NCS reminds me of my former corporate architecture years (the bad parts), but they are a near necessity for larger commercial offices to work easily with others.

The only aspect of MaxATS that I'm second guessing now (after Matthew's mild rant at ACUW ) is the Pens & Colors setup. I'm going to have another look at that.

Re: Where Did You Get Your Layers?

tsturm — Tue, 30 Mar 2004 14:41:59 GMT

You can get the NCS standards at the following addresses

http://www.nationalcadstandard.org

http://www.csinet.org/s_csi/doc_bookstore.asp?TRACKID=&CID=333&DID=6628

Hope this helps out.

Members to CSI get a reduced cost on the purchase of the standards.

Also look at the Uniform Drawing Standards.

http://www.csinet.org/s_csi/sec_expand.asp?CID=126&DID=4232

HTH

Re: Where Did You Get Your Layers?

tsturm — Tue, 30 Mar 2004 15:03:50 GMT

David

My opinion on Pen and Colors is very simple. I hate the standards which have been published.

I find them to very hard for any entry drafter to deal with. I find CAD systems like Vectorworks and Microstation where they assign pens based on the layer. Therefore making the drafter just put the information on the correct layer makes the drawing read right. However in AC the layers do not have this option. I like that. I have chosen after much discussion to use my drafting pens as a standard. After all, they were the standard for sooo many years. I set the first ten pens to be the equivalent of the rapidio pens. They start small and get bigger. Thats it. None of this get smaller and bigger and smaller of pen sizes.

My coworkers like the system. Every color on the screen tells them the thickness of the pen when plotted. Now we forget the pens we use and concentrate on where we are putting our information and the drawing contents.

Re: Where Did You Get Your Layers?

Dave Jochum — Tue, 30 Mar 2004 18:07:59 GMT

tsturm wrote:
David

My opinion on Pen and Colors is very simple. I set the first ten pens to be the equivalent of the rapidio pens. They start small and get bigger. Thats it. Every color on the screen tells them the thickness of the pen when plotted.

I also like the idea of colors representing line weights. Colors representing layers makes little sense to me. I am (almost?) never unsure of an item's layer when viewing on screen. Its line weight, however can not be determined without displaying true weights and zooming in. A real pain.

A case was made at ACUW for not changing the first 9 or 10 pens from the GS set, as they are supposedly set to match typical ACAD settings for ease in importing DWG/DXF files. And of course you don't want to change pen 91.