topic Re: Template for AC 21 in Project data & BIM

Template for AC 21

Anonymous — Fri, 28 Jul 2017 12:36:47 GMT

I created a great template file in our office that we've been using for quite a few years now. My question is; is there a point where I should start from scratch and create a new one? I've always migrated the template from the last version of ArchiCAD. Creating a new one from scratch is quite time consuming (though I know it pays off).

If starting from scratch, how much do I have to recreate? Can I bring in building materials, pen sets, composites, etc? I understand that starting over can remove potential bugs in the software... just wondering what is ok to migrate over and what might create problems.

Re: Template for AC 21

Steve Jepson — Fri, 28 Jul 2017 15:24:53 GMT

I have never understood the value of a Template. And others can't imagine working without one. Every time you finish a project you have created another Template haven't you? And these are the source for assembling other projects are they not?

Re: Template for AC 21

Eduardo Rolon — Fri, 28 Jul 2017 18:06:31 GMT

You should recreate when major changes happen within AC. I recreated when BMats were introduced, New Favorites and with GO's. With 21 and having the new favorites interface you might be able to skip it since you could control stairs and railings with them.

A template is the starting point of a project were all your standards are based. I always start from my Template and I cannot understand how somebody does not use one. A well defined template will save you hours setting up a new project.

Re: Template for AC 21

James Murray — Fri, 28 Jul 2017 18:14:47 GMT

The template should address general problems that have been solved in the past – things that most projects have in common. Most projects have a lot in common. But not everything in common, so if you simply Save As you are bringing a lot of custom (project-specific) cruft forward. The template represents the most complete, sophisticated, general case of your projects.

I have never started my template over. What would that mean? Delete every layer? Why? To deliberately introduce incompatibility with all your previous work? Incremental improvement, every time you notice something, is the way.

Re: Template for AC 21

JaredBanks — Fri, 28 Jul 2017 18:24:56 GMT

A template is much more than just a clean file from a previous project. A template is a collection of best practices, aspirations, and starting points to save you time. This blog post covers a lot of my feelings on templates:

http://www.shoegnome.com/2015/12/09/bim-still-bankrupting-firm/

(and from there you can find many, many more). As to when to start a new template:

In an ideal world you'd start from scratch every version. That's not always feasible though. So I agree with Eduardo. Major changes in ARCHICAD require a rebuilding (AC16 to AC17 for BMats, for instance). Other versions don't require as much recreation (AC20 to AC21). However there are other lesser reasons to rebuild from scratch. If GS redoes how they do Attributes, as they do secretly every few versions, that's a reason to rebuild from scratch and align your template (where valuable) with what comes OOTB.

Another reason to rebuild from scratch is to fix bad habits. If you look back at the various versions of my Open Template (http://www.shoegnome.com/tag/shoegnome-open-template/) you can see where and why I felt it was necessary to rebuild completely. Sometimes it was to fix Pens and Pen Sets, other times it was to align Attributes with what GSNA does or to make my Layers work better with Graphic Overrides. We work the way we do because we have brilliant ideas for how to use ARCHICAD. But ARCHICAD changes over time, so our brilliant ideas become garbage or at least archaic.

If you have been migrating your template from version to version for many years, it's probably time to tear it apart and rebuild it. Bring forward what works and don't be afraid to ditch what doesn't. It's time to rebuild not because of anything special about 21, but because it's probably best to not let the core of a template get more than a few versions old. If you have the time completely reconstruct everything in a clean AC21 file. If you don't want to do that, judiciously use the Attribute Manager to migrate Attributes and carefully copy and paste other things. Whenever you can though rebuild manually in the new file to prevent errors, to avoid migrated garbage, and also review what you do.

Okay, so that's all a long winded way of saying templates are about workflow. If your workflow takes proper advantage of all the recent features of ARCHICAD, it's probably fine to just migrate another year forward. If your workflows don't play well or fail to use things like renovation filters, Graphic Overrides, the new Favorites, CineRender, ARCHICAD Properties, etc, it's time to return to the fundamentals and cause a little pain as you rework how you work.

BTW, the same goes with keyboard shortcuts:
http://www.shoegnome.com/2017/06/28/shoegnome-work-environment-for-archicad-21/

(edit: I agree 100% with the first half of what James wrote. I respectfully and lovingly disagree with his second half. Sometimes a break from the past is necessary—for those of us who didn't start their templates perfectly the first time like James did).

Re: Template for AC 21

Link — Fri, 28 Jul 2017 18:30:42 GMT

Templates are the most important thing in ARCHICAD apart from ARCHICAD itself. There are those who don't have a template and those who start a new project from their last one and those who have a dedicated template that they start every project from

Here's my take on templates: https://bim6x.com/blog/bim-one-three-things-you-need-includes-template

A template is a live document, one that should be adjusted on an ongoing basis, but this should be done parallel to your current project, not as pat of it. Otherwise like James says it will become polluted with attributes and layouts and views and other project-specific info that will bog down all your projects going forward.

If you're not using a dedicated template you're doing it wrong!

Cheers,
Link.

Re: Template for AC 21

JaredBanks — Fri, 28 Jul 2017 18:35:12 GMT

To piggyback on what Link says, keep a running list of changes you need to make to your template. Sometimes I have the time to make the changes in real time as I'm working (by keeping the template file open in a second ARCHICAD). Other times I just add notes to my list of things to change, such as:

add XYZ graphic override, fix typo in X layer name, add Y layer, create Views for this or that, create Layouts for such and such, etc.

Then when the list gets long enough, or it's time to start a new project, update the template, clear the list, (share the template for free with everyone in the world because why not), and get to work.

Re: Template for AC 21

Steve Jepson — Fri, 28 Jul 2017 18:46:14 GMT

ejrolon wrote:
You should recreate when major changes happen within AC. I recreated when BMats were introduced, New Favorites and with GO's. With 21 and having the new favorites interface you might be able to skip it since you could control stairs and railings with them.

A template is the starting point of a project were all your standards are based. I always start from my Template and I cannot understand how somebody does not use one. A well defined template will save you hours setting up a new project.

There is no need to "sett up" a new project. You open a similar project or two if needed, and let the new one evolve as you assemble it, mostly via copy and pasting pre-modeled building ststems that are simply placed and adjusted for the new configurations to make new buildings. There are unorthodox "Workflows" that are exponentially more efficient than the start with a Template idea. There is one Template I do like to use on occasion. It's called the Clear Template think it can be found in a search on this forum.

Re: Template for AC 21

Richard Morrison — Fri, 28 Jul 2017 18:56:02 GMT

James wrote:
I have never started my template over. What would that mean? Delete every layer? Why? To deliberately introduce incompatibility with all your previous work? Incremental improvement, every time you notice something, is the way.

I agree that this is the way it SHOULD work. However, I've had a few occasions where, no matter what I did, I just could not get things like intersections to display correctly in an updated legacy template. Running these through with tech support, we tried the same condition working from the OOTB template, and no problem. Old version template=problem. New version template=No problem.

Therefore, I have become convinced that there are subtle little code ghosts that linger when you've moved a template through a bunch of versions. I'm not sure when or where these occur, but I think that every few versions at least, it helps to start with a blank slate, as annoying as that is.

Re: Template for AC 21

James Murray — Fri, 28 Jul 2017 19:27:30 GMT

JaredBanks wrote:
(edit: I agree 100% with the first half of what James wrote. I respectfully and lovingly disagree with his second half. Sometimes a break from the past is necessary—for those of us who didn't start their templates perfectly the first time like James did).

When something like Bmats happens, a lot of stuff is going to get torn out and done over. But Bmats is no reason to toss out your layers, views, publisher sets, etc. That's the context in which I view 'fresh starts'. (The last thing to wreck our layers was Reno status.)

Re: Template for AC 21

Eduardo Rolon — Fri, 28 Jul 2017 19:43:55 GMT

Steve wrote:
…
There is no need to "sett up" a new project. You open a similar project or two if needed, and let the new one evolve as you assemble it, mostly via copy and pasting pre-modeled building ststems that are simply placed and adjusted for the new configurations to make new buildings. There are unorthodox "Workflows" that are exponentially more efficient than the start with a Template idea. There is one Template I do like to use on occasion. It's called the Clear Template think it can be found in a search on this forum.

Wrote "start from…" then the project is set up.

I would never-ever start a project from a previous one.

• Title Sheet for my company resides in template, Building structure resides on template, basic naming scheme for materials, keynotes and drawings reside in my template. All rendering settings and basic drawing set up, etc. Basically I have in my template anything that I cannot control by using favorites and it is general enough to apply to any type of my projects.
• Right now I have 5 different types projects from a small store, to a chapel to a multi apartment building. All started from the same template and there is not much that I can copy/paste between them nor that I would want to.
• My practice is not building the same McDonald's every time so I don't get to reuse a previous project but I have my office standards that apply to all of them, Even if I was only building McDs then I would spend the time to create a particular template for that kind of project.

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In the end this is a preference of Workflows and if yours works then good for you but for me starting a project with a clean sheet of paper is more productive than staring with one were I have to erase all the previous project stuff.

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FWIW I even have a "Project Folder Template" from were I start all my projects and were all documentation resides. I would never duplicate an existing project folder and start erasing stuff to get it clean and let it evolve.

Re: Template for AC 21

Anonymous — Fri, 28 Jul 2017 19:44:00 GMT

Thanks everyone. Great info and thoughts.

I've always used a template. I find it crucial. I also have a list within arms reach of "things" I need to add to or change in my template. I write these down, then every couple of months I take a few hours and change it as needed. It should be, as discussed, an evolving tool.

I have heard of "ghost" or legacy items/bugs that can be brought forward through versions of ArchiCAD. In fact, I just shared a file with GS's tech support that had some unexplainable building priority/building material issues that we could not fix. This is exactly why I was asking.

I think it's been a few years (4 maybe?) that I've started from scratch... so I think that's the way I'm going to go here. Of course I will manually copy and paste any 2D Details, title blocks, etc.

Thanks for all the comments and links.

Re: Template for AC 21

Steve Jepson — Fri, 28 Jul 2017 23:50:52 GMT

Link wrote:
...
If you're not using a dedicated template you're doing it wrong! :winkI:

Cheers,
Link.

Templates are great for beginners, for people who have little or no imagination for how to use ArchiCAD more efficiently, and people who are constrained by the need for strict and static standardization. All of which are legitimate reasons to use a dedicated Template. None of those things apply to me.

If you are not assembling new projects with pre-modeled assemblies from completed projects - you are doing it wrong.

Re: Template for AC 21

Eduardo Rolon — Sat, 29 Jul 2017 00:16:29 GMT

Steve are you really using the "my way is better, it is the only way and everyone else is wrong argument?"

Not a begginer, lots of imagination, not constrained and I have my dedicated template. So I disagree totally.

Re: Template for AC 21

James Murray — Sat, 29 Jul 2017 01:16:45 GMT

Steve wrote:
Templates are great for beginners, for people who have little or no imagination

Right Steve, everyone here is beginners, lacking imagination. Christ, think a minute before you hit Submit.

Re: Template for AC 21

Steve Jepson — Sat, 29 Jul 2017 02:25:58 GMT

ejrolon wrote:
Steve are you really using the "my way is better, it is the only way and everyone else is wrong argument?"

Not a begginer, lots if imagination, not constrained and I have my dedicated template. So I disagree totally.

You disagree with what exactly?
It is an objective fact that the people I described as Template users, are who uses Templates. Nothing wrong with that is there?

Who is using the "my way is better, it is the only way and everyone else is wrong argument" ?? That would be the Template Salesman! - "if you're not using a Template, you're doing it wrong" That is a rather infamous quotation from another Template fanatic. Links says that partly in jest because he knows how much I will like to see that said again. You sent your comment about the argument to the wrong person. It's the Template fanatics that can't talk all nice nice.

Anyway, I am open to being educated about how a dedicated Template is more useful than similar completed projects.

If you totally disagree with that completed projects are more useful, then you should be able to tell me how using the same Template all the time is better.

Re: Template for AC 21

Steve Jepson — Sat, 29 Jul 2017 02:28:32 GMT

James wrote:
Steve wrote:
Templates are great for beginners, for people who have little or no imagination
Right Steve, everyone here is beginners, lacking imagination. Christ, think a minute before you hit Submit.

They are good for beginners, those lacking in imagination, and those who need to comply with strict office standards. Those are objective facts are they not?

And like I said - these are all legitimate reasons to use a Template. Also an objective fact. Right?

Re: Template for AC 21

Eduardo Rolon — Sat, 29 Jul 2017 03:05:54 GMT

If you are not assembling new projects with pre-modeled assemblies from completed projects - you are doing it wrong. Wink

This is the part I was refering too.
I don't disagree in that it helps new users but they are not the only ones that use them and take advantage if them.

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Nobody is saying that you should use the same template but that template evolve and they need to rebuilt from time to time.
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An assembly done in AC08 will not help much in AC21. The tool limitations we had then could have made us take decisions that are not practical now. In one particular case a 20'-0" x 20'-0" glass sculpture that I has to design and prepare CDs for will it was a pain to do in 2003 but with the new tools I could have done it in half the time. On another side everything that I could reuse from that project was placed on my template back then and has been brought forward and evaluated since that time. So I don't have to go back and dig around the old archive folder. If i remeber correctly the only item still left standing from that time are my drawing titles.
Also the way my design works I don't use previous assemblies in all my projects since the clients want something new. General Details on the other hand are used and they reside in my template.
Another example are AC Properties and IFC schema which change every couple of years and is not a beginner item, I place mine in my template.
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You work however you want but templates have their place even if you don't need to use them.

Re: Template for AC 21

Nathan Hildebrandt — Sat, 29 Jul 2017 03:34:53 GMT

Steve wrote:
Link wrote:
...
If you're not using a dedicated template you're doing it wrong! :winkI:

Cheers,
Link.
Templates are great for beginners, for people who have little or no imagination for how to use ArchiCAD more efficiently, and people who are constrained by the need for strict and static standardization. All of which are legitimate reasons to use a dedicated Template. None of those things apply to me.

If you are not assembling new projects with pre-modeled assemblies from completed projects - you are doing it wrong.

Steve I am late to the party but am very passionate about BIM workflows and the use of ARCHICAD. Firstly before I start critiquing you on your views I want to understand where you are coming from. If you are a sole practitioner then feel free to stand by your views and keep doing what you are doing. I personally think your process is flawed in going from project to project but hey once again I don't know the type of work that you do. It may be cookie cutter stuff where you keep doing the same stuff over and over again. I suggest you watch your attribute mess you are creating and the library mess also.

Moving onto templates. I must be the biggest beginner here right now because I have once of the most complex templates used in practice globally. So I feel you have no idea of the needs for a well thought out template to control good quality output from over 50 staff. Now you talk as if when a template is created in one release it is frozen. No it isn't if there is something great that has been created on a project then you copy that across into the master template for the practice. Done once and then available for reuse. Pretty simple stuff really. Take your approach and you have excess information in the file that is not going to be 100% reused on the next project. Templates are useful for beginners to experts, maybe Rob Jackson is a beginner as well. Might pass on the message to him for you as well.

Cheers

Nathan

Re: Template for AC 21

Nathan Hildebrandt — Sat, 29 Jul 2017 03:42:38 GMT

Steven wrote:
I created a great template file in our office that we've been using for quite a few years now. My question is; is there a point where I should start from scratch and create a new one? I've always migrated the template from the last version of ArchiCAD. Creating a new one from scratch is quite time consuming (though I know it pays off).

If starting from scratch, how much do I have to recreate? Can I bring in building materials, pen sets, composites, etc? I understand that starting over can remove potential bugs in the software... just wondering what is ok to migrate over and what might create problems.

In response to the original query. Steven depending on the new features that come with the new release I determine how much I rebuild from scratch. I always try to roll over and see what is broken and also open the OOTB INT Template and see how the new features were intended to be used (built from GSHQ) then cross check against each other. If things are fundamentally broken on bringing a template across I rebuild. Also if I have significant workflows that I am changing over then I will rebuild those parts from scratch as well. This year we made significant changes to our pensets to align with our BMAT so that meant attaching new pens to our 1000 BMAT attribute list and surfaces. With the introduction of classifications this year and the IFC export we are also completely building that from the ground up. There are no real rules that I have it all depends on what happens each year.

Cheers

Nathan