topic Re: Turning skins in composite walls. in Libraries & objects

Turning skins in composite walls.

Anonymous — Wed, 24 May 2023 09:52:18 GMT

In a window's cavity closer settings, how would you achieve the lower image where the load-bearing skin turns out to meet the outer face of the wall. I cant achieve any better than the top image!

The composite is slightly unusual as it has no outer skin (it is timber boarded and there are too many 'special' situations, so it is modelled separately), so I am wondering if the code can't cope with only three skins?

I'm sure there is a solution, but after an hour I am admitting defeat!

By the way this is in AC13, and the window is 'W M Top Hung 13'

Many thanks!

Re: Turning skins in composite walls.

Laszlo Nagy — Tue, 25 Jan 2011 09:20:22 GMT

After looking at this it seems to me that turned skins cannot extend beyond the Frame of the Window. Which sounds logical if you think about turning plaster and insulation, but is limiting in other cases.
Probably this is how it is programmed in GDL.

Re: Turning skins in composite walls.

JaredBanks — Tue, 25 Jan 2011 16:12:41 GMT

Could it be handled with a empty opening, then a wall (with the correct composite) in that empty opening with the window in the second wall? A little messy, but better than a 2D work around, perhaps.

Re: Turning skins in composite walls.

vfrontiers — Tue, 25 Jan 2011 16:51:17 GMT

Wait a sec.... I played around for a couple of minutes and came up with this...

1. You must use CONSIDER SKIN AS PLASTER to get it to overlap the frame
2. When you hit CONSIDER SKIN... it jumps to 1.Skin for turning
3. But even though I turned it back to 2.skin, the PLASTER concept remained (even though the parameter is unchecked).
4. Then you must use the OVERHANG parameter to get the 2nd skin past the frame... You can type any dimension you want...

Takes some "Trial and Error"..

The dialog is SKETCHY.. making edits turn on/off the main checkbox... though I believe it does not affect the result in plan...

Re: Turning skins in composite walls.

vfrontiers — Tue, 25 Jan 2011 16:52:50 GMT

Ooops.. also I just noticed you are going the OTHER WAY... (turning from the inside...)

I did not check to see if worked in the other direction, but just choose OPPOSITE SIDE instead of reference side...

If that doesn't work, draw your walls "inside out"!

Re: Turning skins in composite walls.

Erika Epstein — Wed, 26 Jan 2011 04:57:30 GMT

I took the approach of turning the wall to match your description of the structural wall turning in. There are two 'L' walls mirroring the window.

Re: Turning skins in composite walls.

ztaskai — Thu, 27 Jan 2011 09:02:21 GMT

You can use 'Custom Closure' to achieve results very similar to your current goal. It is available in all national versions of ArchiCAD Library.

Using the Custom Closure feature is a bit painful but it may be worth it...

See attached picture.

Re: Turning skins in composite walls.

Erika Epstein — Thu, 27 Jan 2011 15:04:11 GMT

Thanks Zolt.
When I looked at this in a schedule, the quantities for the skins remains the same for all the skins, both 13 & 14. Will GS be correcting this?

Re: Turning skins in composite walls.

Anonymous — Fri, 28 Jan 2011 02:08:54 GMT

Thank you all for the tips and ideas!

Even after Duane & Zsolt posted the solution (which I had tried repeatedly previously ) I tried it again with limited success, but I eventually found where I had been going wrong.

It could actually be classed as a bug - Under 'Select Skin to Edit', if you select 'Reference Side', make some changes to what skins turn in and their overhang, then change your mind and select 'Opposite Side' without zeroing the changes you made and unticking the 'turn-in-skin' tickbox for each skin, those changes still effect the result you see and the new changes you make seem to have no affect.

Is there anywhere in the help files that actually explains clearly how the custom closure works? (I've looked at the developer GDL Basic Library Documentation.) What are you changing when selecting the 'Reference Side' or 'Opposite Side' parameter? Is this where the skins are numbered from? Where does it count from when the reference line is offset from the edge e.g. on the external face of the core perhaps? It's been a case of tedious trial and error to get any sort of success - a basic explanation in the help files would have helped.

It also should be noted that the above solutions only work in AC14 as there is no 'Consider Skin as Plaster' option in AC13.

Re: Turning skins in composite walls.

ztaskai — Fri, 28 Jan 2011 07:56:28 GMT

Erika wrote:
When I looked at this in a schedule, the quantities for the skins remains the same for all the skins, both 13 & 14. Will GS be correcting this?

Right. First of all, those wall quantities are computed based on the 3D model of the wall which doesn't show the turned skins. Second, even when we show the turned skins in 3D (for section of course) in the future, ArchiCAD won't know that those GDL based bodies should be counted as a certain skin of the wall. That would be a next step after that...

So... to sum up: these skin turnings won't be calculated correctly very soon:(

Best regards,