topic Re: when AC12 Libs updated will they stop relying on macros? in Libraries & objects

when AC12 Libs updated will they stop relying on macros?

Erika Epstein — Wed, 24 May 2023 10:40:47 GMT

One of Archicad's strengths has been the ease with which users of many levels can customize parts because the GDL script was easily accessible.
In AC12, most doors & windows now call macros; there is no easily editable script. I understand the advantage of macros, but it's too hard to customize these parts now.

When the long overdue overhaul of at the US library finally occurs, will we get this feature back?

Or, am I the only one who doesn't prefer the macros?

Re: when AC12 Libs updated will they stop relying on macros?

Anonymous — Fri, 06 Mar 2009 01:06:03 GMT

Hello Erika,
One of the reasons that I do not use AC windows and doors
and exclusively use only ones I have written is because of
this macro issue. In AC 6.5 and before the only macro used
in windows and doors was a macro that made muntins.
By AC 8 GS had decided to rely heavily on macros and we
have been seeing the consequences ever since. Such things as the
notorious wa_trim_us that has been causing problems in
all it's incarnations ever since. Five versions later, GS has not
reversed them selves on this decision. I wrote once in a thread
I initiated called Learning GDL that it was now impossible to
learn GDL by studying the scripts of AC windows and doors
because of the byzantine system of deeply embedded macros.

I do not like macros and, with one exception, none of my
lib parts contain any for the reason you state, editing a lib
part that contain macro calls is impossible because it's
macros are used by many different parts and the consequence
of changing it for the sake of one part will probably be to bust
other parts that uses the same macro.

I would like GS to change their mind and reverse their AC 8
decision but I do not think it likely.
Thanks,
Peter Devlin

Re: when AC12 Libs updated will they stop relying on macros?

David Maudlin — Fri, 06 Mar 2009 13:51:02 GMT

Erika:

I know this is not what you want to hear, but I think removing macros is not feasible. Using Peter's example of the macro for window muntins, which is used for all the rectangular windows in a library: If a developer wants to correct or enhance this bit of code, then he has the choice of using it as a macro and making the change in one place, or needing to open each window part and alter the code within each part. From a debugging aspect, the macro should be a more efficient strategy, since a bug fix in the macro should cure the bug everywhere (assuming a consistent use of the macro for each part).

The Graphisoft library parts have just become enormously complex, with or without macros. Trying to sort through the if/then statements in some parts (like the Sect-Elev Marker Macro USA, which is, yes, a macro for the Section Marker_NCS 12) ain't easy. With this level of complexity, some other approach for making the parts user editable is needed, the macros themselves are not the heart of the problem.

Just my 2 cents. ; )

David

Re: when AC12 Libs updated will they stop relying on macros?

vistasp — Fri, 06 Mar 2009 15:50:44 GMT

Macros are a pain when they go AWOL. Suppose, just suppose, macros can be embedded in the parent object so that the latter are distributed to users without fear of error. Developers, on the other hand can, if they choose, change the original macro file and update all objects that call it. Something like library items in Dreamweaver. Would that be a solution to this problem?

Re: when AC12 Libs updated will they stop relying on macros?

Laura Yanoviak — Fri, 06 Mar 2009 16:07:58 GMT

Erika wrote:
In AC12, most doors & windows now call macros; there is no easily editable script. I understand the advantage of macros, but it's too hard to customize these parts now.

In AC10 and AC11 most doors & windows call macros -- I know, because I've customized them all -- how is this different with AC12 (I am not actively using AC12)?
We have custom 2D symbols for existing doors, custom Listing Parameters, and I've scripted double doors to list as a pair of doors in schedules. I cringe whenever a Library update is released -- will it be worse when we upgrade?

Re: when AC12 Libs updated will they stop relying on macros?

Anonymous — Fri, 06 Mar 2009 20:13:24 GMT

David wrote:
The Graphisoft library parts have just become enormously complex, with or without macros.

I can't agree more with David. Key word is overcomplexity, not macros.

GDL is a limited language, that's ok. Nevertheless, if you take it as it should be (simple), you can accomplish some interesting things.
Since last versions, GDL adds patches over patches, to hide it's limitations. The result is overcomplexity and bugs.

I don't think GDL can evolve, except a complete rewriting. I would like to be wrong.

Re: when AC12 Libs updated will they stop relying on macros?

Anonymous — Fri, 06 Mar 2009 20:55:27 GMT

Hello Olivier,
You wrote:
"if you take it as it should be (simple), you can accomplish some
interesting things." You have certainly demonstrated this over and
over in your library parts. You also wrote:
"Since last versions, GDL adds patches over patches, to hide it's limitations.
The result is overcomplexity and bugs. I don't think GDL can evolve,
except a complete rewriting."
Do you mean rewriting the library or do you mean rewriting GDL ?
Thanks,
Peter Devlin

Re: when AC12 Libs updated will they stop relying on macros?

Anonymous — Fri, 06 Mar 2009 21:27:10 GMT

Peter wrote:
Do you mean rewriting the library or do you mean rewriting GDL ?

Hi Peter,

GDL language, of course. Don't dream, I'm not optimistic on this one.
15 years afters, pratically nothing has changed, except adding complexity where it should not. 😉

Re: when AC12 Libs updated will they stop relying on macros?

Anonymous — Fri, 06 Mar 2009 21:55:00 GMT

Hello Olivier,
Do you remember about two years ago Frank Beister initiated
a dialog with GS R&D about GDL ? As I remember, GS said they
were contemplating some changes to GDL but I don't remember
the details. It was no complete rewrite as I remember but it was
some progress. I have always wondered if it is possible to rewrite
GDL and still have it work in AC. I have no idea what the implications
of a rewrite might be. I think I will ask my brother who is a software
developer what he knows about such things. Do you remember
anything about what Frank reported about what GS said ?
Thanks,
Peter Devlin

Re: when AC12 Libs updated will they stop relying on macros?

Anonymous — Sat, 07 Mar 2009 08:22:23 GMT

I hate macros!

Re: when AC12 Libs updated will they stop relying on macros?

Piotr Dobrowolski — Sat, 07 Mar 2009 11:59:06 GMT

Regarding AC doors (at last 10-12)....As I looked through the code...almost (I am not quite sure if not all) all doors call the same macro - so the all doors could be, with relatively not much effort, incorporated in one object . - I think the ease of use made the developers to make more types that call the superdoor macro...
I think that superdoor should be added to the library - and it would ease the end user modifications for the custom needs,

I hate macros as well (prefere subroutines), but when developing a big library they are the need...as editing, fixing the same string in lots of parts would take much more time (I know of, and use, and hate also the xml-ing the library which can be used for such fixing and translating, but completly useless for pure writig GDL as there is no possibility to view the results of the just written code)

Best Regards,
Piotr

Re: when AC12 Libs updated will they stop relying on macros?

David Maudlin — Sat, 07 Mar 2009 13:30:38 GMT

Laura wrote:
In AC10 and AC11 most doors & windows call macros -- I know, because I've customized them all -- how is this different with AC12 (I am not actively using AC12)?
We have custom 2D symbols for existing doors, custom Listing Parameters, and I've scripted double doors to list as a pair of doors in schedules. I cringe whenever a Library update is released -- will it be worse when we upgrade?

Laura:

Just a continuation of the evolution of the parts, the general approach has remained the same. For example, now that version 12 has Partial Structure Display options, the windows and doors needed to account for/take advantage of this feature, so additional code has been added. I don't envy your need to modify these parts.

David

Re: when AC12 Libs updated will they stop relying on macros?

Erika Epstein — Sat, 07 Mar 2009 18:34:12 GMT

Laura,
As David and others noted, more parts rely on macros. For someone like me who is not as savvy and accomplished at GDL as you, finding and changing macros adds a level of complexity that I am not yet comfortable with.

One of the strengths of Archicad has been the relative ease that someone of my GDL skill-level could effectively edit parts; creating our own versions based on existing Archicad parts. This has become noticeably less true in these last few iterations of archicad.

About the only plus of this lousy economy is I now have time to work on my GDL skills along with other 'been meaning to...' tasks.

Re: when AC12 Libs updated will they stop relying on macros?

Anonymous — Sat, 07 Mar 2009 19:54:56 GMT

Erika wrote:
One of the strengths of Archicad has been the relative ease that someone of my GDL skill-level could effectively edit parts; creating our own versions based on existing Archicad parts. This has become noticeably less true in these last few iterations of archicad..

Erika,

You explain in few words, exactly what I think. Thanks.
Unfortunatelly, fun is gone. GDL is now for pure programmers, no more for architects. Pity.

Notice the inflation of macros, in particular for windows.
W1 Casement 12, for eg. More than 30 macros, not counting UI images.

Despite (because?) this inflation, there are still problems (wallniche tool) with windows and inclined reveals in thick walls.
For myself, I can no more fix it, too much complex and time consuming.

Yes, fun is gone. Amen.

Re: when AC12 Libs updated will they stop relying on macros?

Anonymous — Sat, 07 Mar 2009 23:49:58 GMT

Macros are a necessary evil as the GDL now stands. I try to avoid them but often they are the best way to get the job done.

It seems to me though that this problem could be fixed with a new GDL editor including:

1. A visual environment showing the links between the primary scripts and called macros with lists of passed parameters. (This is not the Visual GDL for graphic parameter editing - though that would be past terrific also.)

2. The ability to compile these working files into executable standalone library parts, ie macros included.

This way it is possible to use macros as they presently are for creating common code objects to be shared among similar library parts, but without having to be sure the silly things are always loaded by the user.

Of course some other great features for this fantasy editor would be:

a. Graphic editing of dimensional parameters.

b. Full featured text editing including color coding, keyword autocompletion, loop tracking with auto-indenting, and so on.

c. A running indicator of the transformation stack. ("Now was that six add statements or only five? Do you feel lucky? Well do you punk?")

d. Self documentation tools.

Oh well, we can dream...