topic Re: Cigraph Problem in Libraries & objects

Cigraph Problem

Anonymous — Fri, 17 Nov 2006 08:20:57 GMT

Joseph wrote:
CadImage products are very useful but have had problem with above issues, bugs in there products and not a good tech support.

Cigraph's customer service isn't exactly stellar, either. I've been trying to get my ArchiStair upgraded for almost *three weeks* now, utterly without success.

Their website is down half the time I try to log on, so I couldn't order the upgrade through them and get the serial number right away (or what I had at least hoped would be right away). Objects Online has to jump through their hoops before they will issue a serial number also.

And God help you if, like me, you find yourself having to replace your hardware key, because your Cigraph add-ons will stop working, and you will not be able to upgrade them without a major hassle.

Almost 3 weeks ago, Fabrizio told me he would reset my serial number since I couldn't find it when he got a message from my reseller showing the hardware key had been replaced, so I forwarded him the message from Graphisoft documenting it had been sent.

So, did I get the reset number? No. Fabrizio claimed he never got the forwarded email. And even after resending it, he *still* didn't reset the unlock code, or whatever the hell they call it. When I wrote him to remind him the other day, all he did was tell me to download the demo, that I didn't need the old registration ID for that!

As if that solves my problem - particularly since the demo version only allows you to do 10 commands.

Not 10 staircases, mind you, or 10 days' worth of use - but 10 *commands* - including modifying existing staircases. So, if you're novice at this program like I am, you may not get very far on even *one* staircase, if you need to make modifications after you first create it.

So, once you even figure out how to load the damned thing in the first place, which is the world's worst pain in the ass to actually get it working, you *still* find yourself with just a demo version despite having purchased the software.

I am so pissed right now I could just spit.

Wendy

Re: Cigraph Problem

Fabrizio Diodati — Fri, 17 Nov 2006 12:36:03 GMT

Dear Wendy,

I'm really sad saying you are so angry with us that you had the need to insert once again this post in a different place...

I hope I won't offend you if I post here the same answer...

Dear Wendy,

for sure when an user has a trouble the fault is us… in any way, also because in the better case there has been a lack of communication between us and the final user.
Starting from this point let me summarize what is happened (at least from our side).
You contacted me by saying you downloaded the ArchiStair update but that it was running as demo version (11/7/2006 is your first e-mail to me… 10 days ago and not *three weeks*! If the matter started before I can only address the trouble the user notify us so… 10 days ago).
The reason because ArchiStair was not working is that the compatibility updates for ArchiCAD 10 are not free of charge.
Also in this site I posted this new, all the Distributors know about it and… I don’t know how we can better inform the user about this.
BTW, your first e-mail subject was “ArchiStair for Archicad v10” so it was clear for me (probably this was my fault) that you was asking for the version for ArchiCAD 10.
In the same day you wrote me another e-mail (the third one because you addressed my first reply, where I explained you should buy the compatibility update, saying I was right…) saying you bought the compatibility update from Objects Online (that means OOL sent you the new Registration ID needed to get the new unlock code) but that you wasn’t able to download the software.
In this last period our web site is under maintenance but here started the “mystery” for me: in the first e-mail you told you was not able to use ArchiStair under AC 10… just the Registration ID was missing so… why did you need to download the software once again?
Never mind.
You wrote “Objects Online has to jump through their hoops before they will issue a serial number”: quite simple the reason, to provide the user or the Distributor with one of this Registration ID we need the previous Registration ID!
The compatibility update costs just 15 Euro so we have to be sure we are selling ArchiStair for AC 10 to an existing user… otherwise anybody could get the software for 15 Euro instead of 86 Euro!

“And God help you if, like me, you find yourself having to replace your hardware key, because your Cigraph add-ons will stop working, and you will not be able to upgrade them without a major hassle. “
What I need to reset a Registration ID when an user change the dongle is, quite simply, the Registration ID itself! If the user don’t have anymore the Registration ID I cannot reset it.
Please, try to imagine to ask Graphisoft to substitute a dongle you don’t have anymore: just the same!
BTW, I never received any communication from anybody saying you got substituted your AC dongle.

You wrote “Almost 3 weeks ago, Fabrizio told me he would reset my serial number since I couldn't find it when he got a message from my reseller showing the hardware key had been replaced, so I forwarded him the message from Graphisoft documenting it had been sent.

First: unfortunately I never received your e-mail regarding the dongle substitution.
Second: once again, not three weeks but 10 days ago
Third: how can explain you that I cannot reset a Registration ID if you don’t tell me your Registration ID?

“When I wrote him to remind him the other day, all he did was tell me to download the demo, that I didn't need the old registration ID for that!”

To download the software you DO NOT need anything!
At that point you had the Registration ID (bought from OOL), you had the software (I just suggested you to download it once again) so… what was the trouble?

“Not 10 staircases, mind you, or 10 days' worth of use - but 10 *commands* - including modifying existing staircases.”
BTW ArchiStair when run in demo version let you do less than this: you can only browse the dialog windows nothing else!
When you use ArchiCAD Demo version you can do a lot of things but you cannot save the project so…

Just as happy end today you wrote me you finally found your Registration ID, both the new one (that one sold by OOL) and the previous one.

I just reset the old one (sorry for the late but I have before to reply to your post here!): as usual, as the user send me the Registration ID I immediately reset it… without it I cannot reset anything!

What is still a mystery… sorry again for my stupidity… is that I checked on our webserver database the status of the new Registration ID (that one you bought from OOL and that you need to use ArchiStair under ArchiCAD 10) and… YOU STILL DIDN’T USE IT!!!!

So, please, could you be so kind to explain me how can I help you?

Friendly (really!)
Your
Fabrizio

Re: Cigraph Problem

Andy Thomson — Fri, 17 Nov 2006 12:37:33 GMT

This is a genuine problem - when overzealous copy protection 'impedes fair use'. It is the primary reason we have never purchased such third party add-ons, despite the fact that they are very good, in fact, I consider archistair and door/window builder absolutely indispensible, but hugely problemmatic from a cad/project/library management perspective.

It has been suggested that these vendor/developers tie their licensing to the workstation, such as Artlantis does, which can easily be 'deactivated' from one machine and 'reactivated' on another machine.

Re: Cigraph Problem

Fabrizio Diodati — Fri, 17 Nov 2006 15:20:46 GMT

It has been suggested that these vendor/developers tie their licensing to the workstation, such as Artlantis does, which can easily be 'deactivated' from one machine and 'reactivated' on another machine.

The idea could be very good but... too much expensive for a so cheap software (86 Euro).
On the other hand you could simply switch the dongle from a computer to another one or (this just because we addressed a very similar request from another user) just keep these tools on a dedicated machine where you will elaborate all the things related to these add-ons and simply load the add-ons library on the other computers which wil be able to use these elements (display but not edit).

Just an example for ArchiStair: on the dedicated computer you can create and edit the stair on all the other ones you will see those stairs.

Of course if you have a net dongle all these trouble disappear...

Friendly
Fabrizio

Re: Cigraph Problem

Rakela Raul — Fri, 17 Nov 2006 16:01:38 GMT

On the other hand you could simply switch the dongle from a computer to another one or (this just because we addressed a very similar request from another user) just keep these tools on a dedicated machine where you will elaborate all the things related to these add-ons and simply load the add-ons library on the other computers which wil be able to use these elements (display but not edit).

all the above trouble for this "cheap addon" ?? something is wrong here !!

Re: Cigraph Problem

Fabrizio Diodati — Fri, 17 Nov 2006 16:07:57 GMT

someone could be so kind to make a list of all this large amount of above trouble?

Re: Cigraph Problem

Andy Thomson — Fri, 17 Nov 2006 16:08:01 GMT

My sentiments exactly. Fabrizio, it is not just about a single add-on, but all the related software, and the sum total of add-ons, cadimage, maxon form, etc. required to work productively - managing all of these becomes unfortunately a major pain. I WANT to use ArchiStair, but I seem unable to convince you that the licensing is a problem.

I don't have an easy answer, apart from allowing Graphisoft to purchase ArchiStair - then, obviously, I would use it all day long 😉

Re: Cigraph Problem

TomWaltz — Fri, 17 Nov 2006 16:08:14 GMT

andyro wrote:
This is a genuine problem - when overzealous copy protection 'impedes fair use'. It is the primary reason we have never purchased such third party add-ons, despite the fact that they are very good, in fact, I consider archistair and door/window builder absolutely indispensible, but hugely problemmatic from a cad/project/library management perspective.

It has been suggested that these vendor/developers tie their licensing to the workstation, such as Artlantis does, which can easily be 'deactivated' from one machine and 'reactivated' on another machine.

It was this exact problem that stopped me from using Cigraph products. When Archistair was free, the hassle of installing it was more than the hassle of using StairMaker (until I wrote my own stair one day just to see how hard it was.... and it was really hard!!)

Re: Cigraph Problem

Anonymous — Mon, 20 Nov 2006 23:31:10 GMT

Can we go Object Base ArchiStair? I think this will solve a part of problem of not having the Stair as an object when thing go wrong.
Joseph

Re: Cigraph Problem

Anonymous — Tue, 21 Nov 2006 07:11:11 GMT

TomWaltz wrote:
andyro wrote:
This is a genuine problem - when overzealous copy protection 'impedes fair use'. It is the primary reason we have never purchased such third party add-ons, despite the fact that they are very good, in fact, I consider archistair and door/window builder absolutely indispensible, but hugely problemmatic from a cad/project/library management perspective.

It has been suggested that these vendor/developers tie their licensing to the workstation, such as Artlantis does, which can easily be 'deactivated' from one machine and 'reactivated' on another machine.
It was this exact problem that stopped me from using Cigraph products. When Archistair was free, the hassle of installing it was more than the hassle of using StairMaker (until I wrote my own stair one day just to see how hard it was.... and it was really hard!!)

This is also why I have difficulty recommending add-ons to my clients. The management overhead is too much. I have one client right now that I am helping to develop all the parts they need in-house (including stairs and railings) since this will end up less expensive in the long run.

Yes Tom, stairs are hard when all you have is plain old GDL. I've been kicking this one around for a long time. I'm glad to finally have the chance to finish one.

Every so often I am reminded of my work on speedikon. This is one of those times. They had a stair macro environment that was really pretty good. Despite having to write code in a text editor, batch process it in a DOS based compiler (strange for something originating in UNIX), and then load it into Microstation/speedikon (aka speedikon-M) to see the results, it was still easier than writing a stair in GDL.

Re: Cigraph Problem

Thomas Holm — Tue, 21 Nov 2006 08:19:44 GMT

Matthew wrote:
Every so often I am reminded of my work on speedikon.

Have to agree there. I think if Bentley had chosen to buy Speedikon instead of BiricWorks/Triforma, the BIM market would have been different now. It had many of the advantages of Archicad!

Re: Cigraph Problem

Fabrizio Diodati — Tue, 21 Nov 2006 09:29:51 GMT

Can we go Object Base ArchiStair? I think this will solve a part of problem of not having the Stair as an object when thing go wrong.

dear Joseph, could you explain me what do you mean?
Do you mean that the result shouldn't be a unique stair but a "collection" of single parts?

Re: Cigraph Problem

Anonymous — Tue, 21 Nov 2006 10:30:10 GMT

andyro wrote:
in fact, I consider archistair and door/window builder absolutely indispensible, but hugely problemmatic from a cad/project/library management perspective.

The whole add-on situation drives me crazy. I simply can't keep up with what I've got and the upgrades. And then when the upgrades are so difficult to install, it makes me just want to tear my hair out. It's doubly frustrating when the program *is* as indispensable as ArchiStair is, because otherwise, I'd just ditch any program that was this difficult to cope with and be done with it.

Fabrizio finally sent me a list of all the steps I needed to take to install this upgrade, step by step, complete with screen shots, which at least clarified the process better, and let me see what *ought* to have been coming up on the screen at each step. That at least made it clear that there was not just one serial-type number necessary to install this thing, but no fewer than *three* - including the Archicad dongle number.

Who can keep track of multiple codes necessary to install one piece of software? It's hard enough to keep track of one. And one of these - the unlock code - isn't even sent via email.

Even with more detailed instructions than are provided with the software or on the website, the upgrade *still* didn't work - like I kept telling him over and over in email. I really don't understand why, but he just didn't seem to believe me. I finally had to stay up late when I would have much rather gone to bed to call him in Italy.

I can see that he really was trying to help, and that to some extent, we were just miscommunicating, but he just didn't seem to believe me when I kept telling him it wasn't working. It was so frustrating. At least now I realize why we didn't seem to understand each other.

The reality is that there are major pieces of the installation process that are simply not well-explained anywhere.

It just doesn't make sense to have an installation procedure that's so doggoned difficult that a person who is generally considered a power computer user should have to be tearing her hair out for more than two weeks and making international phone calls in order to get the program installed and working, though.

Fabrizio, if you at least put the same explanation as you sent me in your last email message into the software installation packet somewhere, say as a ReadMe file - and/or on the website where it could be easily found - that would go a long ways towards helping people through the process more easily.

Wendy

Re: Cigraph Problem

Fabrizio Diodati — Tue, 21 Nov 2006 11:47:34 GMT

Dear Wendy,

first of all it has been a pleasure to speak with you by phone.
Then, for sure anything can be inproved (and must be improved!) but:

Fabrizio, if you at least put the same explanation as you sent me in your last email message into the software installation packet somewhere, say as a ReadMe file - and/or on the website where it could be easily found - that would go a long ways towards helping people through the process more easily.

If you look at the attached image, you can see how, from the same serialization dialog window, you can get just the same info I wrote you (better explained!) just clicking on the Help button.
Furthermore, inside all our add-on folder there is a ReadMe file (just like you call it!) that explaine some other further info.

In the next week I will assemble a movie showing the whole serialization process, we will upload it on our web site and I hope this will help all the users who have trouble on this field.

If you agree (please send me a private e-mail) you will be my beta tester about this movie: you will decide if it is enough clear...

Friendly
Fabrizio

Re: Cigraph Problem

Frank Beister — Tue, 21 Nov 2006 13:25:12 GMT

Maybe this should be posted to wishlist, but the embedding of AddOns is beside installing the serials not good solved in ArchiCAD. It seems to become more and more AddOns for the all-in-one-software ArchiCAD. If it has to be that way a GS certified and in AC implemented mechanism of requesting and installing AddOns is necessary. Look to open source. Look at FF. That I have to download even GS published AddOns manualy is a strange way for a software of the 21th century.

Re: Cigraph Problem

Anonymous — Tue, 21 Nov 2006 14:12:29 GMT

Thomas wrote:
Matthew wrote:
Every so often I am reminded of my work on speedikon.
Have to agree there. I think if Bentley had chosen to buy Speedikon instead of BiricWorks/Triforma, the BIM market would have been different now. It had many of the advantages of Archicad!

...and some we are still waiting for, like view filters and classcodes. Of course a good view filter required writing a thousand (or two, or more) lines of code.

Re: Cigraph Problem

Anonymous — Tue, 21 Nov 2006 14:35:19 GMT

F. wrote:
Maybe this should be posted to wishlist, but the embedding of AddOns is beside installing the serials not good solved in ArchiCAD. It seems to become more and more AddOns for the all-in-one-software ArchiCAD. If it has to be that way a GS certified and in AC implemented mechanism of requesting and installing AddOns is necessary. Look to open source. Look at FF. That I have to download even GS published AddOns manualy is a strange way for a software of the 21th century.

I agree very strongly with this. We need a single, simple way to register add-ons. Perhaps GS could get together with Cigraph and Cadimage to sort something out. It is important that people be compensated for their good work, but it serves no one if the process that ensures this is too difficult.

I am sure it would be complicated by each vendor's understandable desire to retain control of their customer list, but it would be best to have a single website where one could register and maintain all their purchased add-ons. Perhaps GS could host such a site with separate areas maintained by each vendor. This might even help more people sell add-ons that don't have such a wide market as stairs, etc. by reducing the cost of managing the registration process.

The problem is that the value of extending ArchiCAD with add-ons is seriously diminished if they are not easily maintained. It would be in everyone's interest to sort this out.

Frank,

If you haven't already I think you should post this to the wish list.

Re: Cigraph Problem

Gerald Hoffman — Thu, 23 Nov 2006 01:07:32 GMT

I agree very strongly with Matthew and Frank on this one. I have quite a few add-ons and find the registration with CadImage is not too bad. I just bought the upgrade for ArchiStair for AC10 and am now waiting for a valid serial number to put in to register from ObjectsonLine. They say they are having trouble getting ahold of Cigraph but it should just not be this hard.

Just my 2 bits worth while we are in a bitchin mood.