topic Re: electrical 2D outlet symbol did not change size after scale changed in Libraries & objects

electrical 2D outlet symbol did not change size after scale changed

PYA — Sun, 29 Oct 2023 22:11:14 GMT

Hi, Is there anyway I can make electrical outlet 2D symbol to adjust the size to match drawing scale? I set up 3/4" scale drawings, everything changed accordingly except those MEP symbol. like outlet, switch. it seems like they set up at 1/4" scale and never changed.

Re: electrical 2D outlet symbol did not change size after scale changed

Barry Kelly — Wed, 25 Oct 2023 06:42:27 GMT

If they are symbols of the objects and not the actual detailed object, why would you want the symbol size to change?

I would consider them like text, you want a standard printable size that stays constant, no matter the scale of you plan.

Actual detailed objects should scale up or down as they represent the true size of the object.

But a symbol is just a symbol, and at a larger scale plan, you can show more symbols clearly, rather than have them increase in size with your plan and appear too large.

Having said all that, does the object have a setting to make it 'Scale with plan' or 'scale independent' (the same as text does).

If not, then you have no choice.

Also what version of Archicad are you using?

The MEP objects in 27 seem to be quite different to what they were before.

Barry.

Re: electrical 2D outlet symbol did not change size after scale changed

PYA — Sun, 29 Oct 2023 12:18:44 GMT

Barry, Sorry, I should make it more clear. I have attached two screen shot. As you can see this is same layout with different scale, one is 1/4" one is 1/8". However, outlet shown both drawing remain same. including 2D text associated with 2D symbol. To me, the outlet here is 2D symbol, it should changes the size per scale.

Thanks

I am runing 27.

Re: electrical 2D outlet symbol did not change size after scale changed

Karl Ottenstein — Sun, 29 Oct 2023 22:10:30 GMT

PYA, Please add a signature listing your AC version, localization, OS, etc like mine and Barry's - or else include that with each new question because libraries are localized and only someone with your version can try to reproduce your issue.

Your second post mentions 27, but not the localization. I'm looking at the USA edition and "Outlet 1 US 27" ... which is NOT a symbol, but a 3D object that also has a normal schematic symbol associated with it.

Bottom line is that this object is not scale-sensitive in any way. The 3D outlet of course should not be. Arguably, the 2D symbol (vs the displayed projection of the outlet box) and its text should be scaleable. But it's not. You could report this issue to your local support for them to add to the library bug list. Each region is responsible for its library parts ... so if you are in the US, the GSNA team would be responsible for fixing this to be scaleable. Fair warning, it is extremely rare to get library updates during a product cycle. Has happened, but not often.

I think the programmer was thinking that the symbols should be the same size more or less as the outlet box so that they could be readable at all scales... but the text is just weird to not scale.

If you're using the same USA part that I mentioned, its defaults make no sense... for example, the default outlet box is 2" wide which will never happen. So, make a favorite with correct dimensions... and the overall width of the symbolic label can be changed in the settings width field... or via an editable hotspot (magenta diamond):

Re: electrical 2D outlet symbol did not change size after scale changed

Barry Kelly — Mon, 30 Oct 2023 01:44:18 GMT

If you are using the USA library, then I do not have those objects as I am AUS.

I just looked at the default electrical objects in that library, and it appears they are not scales sensitive either.

But you can set the 'true' size of the object (in the AUS library) - which makes no sense to me for a symbol.

If I was looking at the actual outlet in 2D that would be fine, but object representations (symbols) should have the option to be scale sensitive or not.

So if a scale sensitive option is not there, then all you can do is request it via your local distributor/support as Karl mentioned.

I know exactly what you want as I have created my own objects that do exactly this.

Feel free to link to this post as an explanation if you do request this from you local support.

Barry.

Re: electrical 2D outlet symbol did not change size after scale changed

Lingwisyer — Tue, 31 Oct 2023 02:03:40 GMT

Having a symbol like this be scale sensitive would be a nightmare for me. It would have to have an array to store both the symbol and the text position at each scale... And given that scales can be custom, this array sounds like a nightmare to code... unless you make it based on user input.

Re: electrical 2D outlet symbol did not change size after scale changed

Barry Kelly — Tue, 31 Oct 2023 02:38:32 GMT

No arrays necessary I don't think.

The symbol itself should scale from the origin point (that would normally coincide with the object placement point) as shown in my image.

So it shouldn't move at different scales.

In my image the text does appear to move (it doesn't really - it is because the scale is bigger so the distance appears larger) but that is because I have no allowed for it - I would rarely ever show at 2 different scales - one or the other so I would just move the text to suit.

But that should be just a matter of multiplying (or is it dividing?) the text position by the scale factor.

Barry.

Re: electrical 2D outlet symbol did not change size after scale changed

Lingwisyer — Tue, 31 Oct 2023 04:25:20 GMT

The issue is if you are doing electrical layouts, you may have multiple symbols next to each other which work at one scale, but if they scaled up around their origin, they would overlap and become unreadable. To get around that you would need to be able to store a location for each of the required scales within each object.

Re: electrical 2D outlet symbol did not change size after scale changed

Barry Kelly — Tue, 31 Oct 2023 05:33:16 GMT

As can be seen in my image, the objects can scale about there origin, so their position doesn't move.

The 1:100 is technically incorrect as the power outlets would scale 300mm wide, which they are not, which as you say would be unreadable if they were in their correct positions.

We usually get away with that as it is just a general location for them, unless we have a lot of outlets all together or we need exact positioning to be dimensioned.

I find any symbol under 300mm at 1:100 would be to small to see when printed.

But to make it readable, we would use a 1:50 scale where the outlets would show as 150mm wide (still a little larger than they really are - if that was important I would make sure they were the correct size).

Then we would show our electrical layout at 1:50 and not 1:00

So I don't see why you would want them in a different position at different scales?

If you did that, you would need a leader line pointing to where they should be.

I would also say that you would only show them on a larger scale plan (where the objects will appear smaller) rather than on a smaller scale plan where they overlap.

You would only need to show them on one plan at a scale where you can fit the objects at their correct position.

I can't imagine when you would want to show them at 2 different scales at the same time.

At a smaller scale I would show nothing and just add a not to refer the the larger scale electrical plan.

But I guess every body has to work out a method that works for them, for the type of work they are doing.

Barry.

Re: electrical 2D outlet symbol did not change size after scale changed

Lingwisyer — Tue, 31 Oct 2023 07:22:21 GMT

My initial reply was just in regards to the extra complexity, most likely the reason why it was not scripted that way, required in the object in a way I could possibly see working to achieve what the OP was asking for. As you say, the floor plan symbols are purely symbolic and just a general reference to where they are located so you set a symbol size and that is it and if we wanted to be more specific, we would include interior elevations with the required details and dimensions. We have never needed to be that specific for electrical though.

Ling.

Re: electrical 2D outlet symbol did not change size after scale changed

Sarah H — Mon, 24 Mar 2025 07:53:33 GMT

Hi Barry

Can please I ask how you made your 2D GPO object scalable or are you able to share your script? I have been trying to do something similar for days and cannot work out how to script the scaling aspect.

I also have a 3D object associated with it but that doesn't need to be scaleable (just in case that changes things)

Thanks

Re: electrical 2D outlet symbol did not change size after scale changed

Lingwisyer — Mon, 24 Mar 2025 08:02:05 GMT

MUL2 GLOB_SCALE, GLOB_SCALE

Put that at the beginning of the 2D script. This will make something placed in a View scale against the drawing scale so that it is always to same size. If the object generates it's 2D via a Project2, you would need to use a GLOB_CONTEXT to limit the scaling to 2D only and add a z to the transformation.

Ling.

Re: electrical 2D outlet symbol did not change size after scale changed

Sarah H — Mon, 24 Mar 2025 08:15:11 GMT

Thanks @Lingwisyer

That worked perfectly for scaling the object!

Next question - how do I stop the text from scaling?

Re: electrical 2D outlet symbol did not change size after scale changed

Lingwisyer — Mon, 24 Mar 2025 08:46:29 GMT

I am not quite sure what you are trying to achieve... I am assuming this object was created by saving from the floor plan? You can Define Style then use a Set Style. Your text would then be defined as AC_TextSize / GLOB_SCALE, but by doing this, going from 1:100 to 1:50, your symbol would double in size but the text would not... and the relevant position change would need to be made.

Re: electrical 2D outlet symbol did not change size after scale changed

Barry Kelly — Mon, 24 Mar 2025 08:52:55 GMT

I can't share the object because it is company property.

But simply in the 2D script before you draw the object ...

if scale_sens then MUL2 GLOB_SCALE/100,GLOB_SCALE/100 endif

Barry.

Re: electrical 2D outlet symbol did not change size after scale changed

Sarah H — Mon, 24 Mar 2025 11:29:20 GMT

That's exactly what I was after @Lingwisyer, Thanks!

Basically, I wanted the 2D object to show smaller at 1:50 or 1:20 but the text to remain at 1.5 size for all scales.

Using GLOB_SCALE in the Define Style line as you suggested worked perfectly. I had to use *100/GLOB_SCALE as I had drawn the original object at 1:100 before I learned that it's better to draw them 1:1.

I attached the screenshots of the old and new objects for reference.

Thanks again for your help!

Re: electrical 2D outlet symbol did not change size after scale changed

Sarah H — Mon, 24 Mar 2025 09:19:11 GMT

Thanks, Barry.
Lingwisyer actually beat you to it with the same suggestion, and I can confirm it worked for me.