topic Re: ac 12 'core only' question in Libraries & objects

ac 12 'core only' question

Anonymous — Fri, 26 May 2023 09:31:03 GMT

For those who have seen AC12 already - I'm really glad to see the new core only option and would like to make good use of it. One thingI'm wondering though, is whether there is any mechanism to deal with door and window casing?

Specifically, if you are set to core only and have doors/windows with casing, the casing will be floating out away from the wall. What we really need is a core only option for the doors and windows, i guess. How is this dealt with in AC12?

Re: ac 12 'core only' question

TomWaltz — Mon, 23 Jun 2008 19:54:30 GMT

Archicad shows the wall with just the core, so the casing floats away from the core.

Technically, it is correct, since the casing still acts as through the finishes are there, just that the finishes are just invisible.

Re: ac 12 'core only' question

Anonymous — Mon, 23 Jun 2008 23:20:41 GMT

TomWaltz wrote:
Archicad shows the wall with just the core, so the casing floats away from the core.

Technically, it is correct, since the casing still acts as through the finishes are there, just that the finishes are just invisible.

Definitely correct, but it would be great (essential?) if the casing could be turned off globally in conjunction with 'core only'

With all due credit to the work that goes into each new feature and release, this is where those new features have a tough time making it from good idea to real-world application. So it's great to have the core only feature but floating casing may mean that many won't use the feature. I'll have to see how it looks, but there's no good solution. Even with cadimage doors/windows which allow more control, the trims are either on or off for plan view. It might be possible to use pens, but more experimenting will be needed. With AC doors/windows, you can't adjust casing separately as far as I know.

Re: ac 12 'core only' question

Anonymous — Tue, 24 Jun 2008 05:10:14 GMT

Chris wrote:
TomWaltz wrote:
Archicad shows the wall with just the core, so the casing floats away from the core.

Technically, it is correct, since the casing still acts as through the finishes are there, just that the finishes are just invisible.
Definitely correct, but it would be great (essential?) if the casing could be turned off globally in conjunction with 'core only'

With all due credit to the work that goes into each new feature and release, this is where those new features have a tough time making it from good idea to real-world application. So it's great to have the core only feature but floating casing may mean that many won't use the feature. I'll have to see how it looks, but there's no good solution. Even with cadimage doors/windows which allow more control, the trims are either on or off for plan view. It might be possible to use pens, but more experimenting will be needed. With AC doors/windows, you can't adjust casing separately as far as I know.

Didn't have the chance to open AC12 yet, but I'm sure that you can use this new feature with the "model view options", it's just one setting to ask the hole to stay visible but not the casing.

Am I wrong ß testers ?

Re: ac 12 'core only' question

Anonymous — Tue, 24 Jun 2008 07:50:28 GMT

Are there any improvements in prioriries?
for example slab and wall with differentcomposite structures interact with each other or it's like in ac11?

Re: ac 12 'core only' question

TomWaltz — Tue, 24 Jun 2008 09:47:05 GMT

Til wrote:
Chris wrote:
TomWaltz wrote:
Archicad shows the wall with just the core, so the casing floats away from the core.

Technically, it is correct, since the casing still acts as through the finishes are there, just that the finishes are just invisible.
Definitely correct, but it would be great (essential?) if the casing could be turned off globally in conjunction with 'core only'

With all due credit to the work that goes into each new feature and release, this is where those new features have a tough time making it from good idea to real-world application. So it's great to have the core only feature but floating casing may mean that many won't use the feature. I'll have to see how it looks, but there's no good solution. Even with cadimage doors/windows which allow more control, the trims are either on or off for plan view. It might be possible to use pens, but more experimenting will be needed. With AC doors/windows, you can't adjust casing separately as far as I know.
Didn't have the chance to open AC12 yet, but I'm sure that you can use this new feature with the "model view options", it's just one setting to ask the hole to stay visible but not the casing.

Am I wrong ß testers ?

Model view options affect sections and elevations, but not the 3D window, so it depends on which view you want to look at.

Model view options still only turn off the entire door or window. They can't turn off just the casing and leave the rest.

Re: ac 12 'core only' question

James Murray — Tue, 24 Jun 2008 18:50:50 GMT

The new global GLOB_STRUCTURE_DISPLAY reflects the partial structure display condition.

So D/W could be scripted to omit casing when finishes are off, e.g.

Not the answer that most people who want the casings handled as finishes but don't want to script D/W want to hear.

Re: ac 12 'core only' question

stefan — Thu, 26 Jun 2008 13:03:54 GMT

zucoc wrote:
Are there any improvements in priorities?
for example slab and wall with different composite structures interact with each other or it's like in ac11?

No changes. One of my major gripes...

Re: ac 12 'core only' question

Anonymous — Thu, 26 Jun 2008 14:59:38 GMT

so besides the curtain wall system there's nothing on new for modeling
that's great

Re: ac 12 'core only' question

Anonymous — Thu, 26 Jun 2008 17:08:06 GMT

James wrote:
The new global GLOB_STRUCTURE_DISPLAY reflects the partial structure display condition.

So D/W could be scripted to omit casing when finishes are off, e.g.

Not the answer that most people who want the casings handled as finishes but don't want to script D/W want to hear.

I use the cadimage door and window builder a lot and asked them about this - they say it's being incorporated into their v.12 update so I'm hoping for the best. AC shoudl also get this integrated in to their objects

Re: ac 12 'core only' question

David Shorter — Fri, 27 Jun 2008 21:17:51 GMT

I would have thought that core only would require the the complete door or window to be omitted leaving just the opening......
Just a thought.....
Comments anyone?

Re: ac 12 'core only' question

Anonymous — Sat, 28 Jun 2008 01:22:11 GMT

David wrote:
I would have thought that core only would require the the complete door or window to be omitted leaving just the opening......
Just a thought.....
Comments anyone?

I there are two ways to think of it. One is the strict 'core only' approach designed to isolate the structural components. That approach would mean that windows and doors would be omitted. It seems to me that this is more suited to larger or commercial projects.

The other approach would be more oriented toward typical residential projects and the drawings produced for them. For me this means having the core only option to isolate the core of the walls but still showing doors and windows. This creates the typical dimensioned plans for the contractors. Then for interior planning and finish plans, the entire wall system as well as casings would be shown.

For my residential work, that's what I want to be able to do. I guess what would be best is if, for doors and windows, one could specify that the trims are finishes and then whether the frames are to be considered core items (and displayed under 'core only') or not core items, in which case they would be omitted from 'core only' views.

What do others think?

Re: ac 12 'core only' question

David Shorter — Mon, 30 Jun 2008 20:38:03 GMT

Chris you're right that this is probably more suited to the BIM approach (multiple disciplines working on the same virtual model) or is that not the definition of BIM?
Has anyone developed a method of giving ownership of a structural wall to the Structural Engineer whilst retaining control over the door or window in that wall?

Re: ac 12 'core only' question

Anonymous — Tue, 01 Jul 2008 03:58:52 GMT

New "core-only" may be great, (We'll soon see), but...
What I'd like to see is a MVO option that shows,(by line type) (see modified MVO below),whether the opening is a window or door, as requested by my current structural engineer. Better yet, how about additional option for showing what type of bearing capacity, by showing option for, say; double 2x's, 4x's, 6X's etc. on either side of opening?
Bier

Re: ac 12 'core only' question

Karl Ottenstein — Tue, 01 Jul 2008 17:30:35 GMT

Bier wrote:
New "core-only" may be great, (We'll soon see), but...
What I'd like to see is a MVO option that shows,(by line type) (see modified MVO below),whether the opening is a window or door, as requested by my current structural engineer.

Maybe my brain is not working, but why would it matter what kind of opening you have (window or door) when determining structural elements? Isn't an opening an opening?

If you are sending dwg files to your engineer, you can let him sort out your request. In the dwg translator, under Attributes > Layers > Methods, you can choose to have Window linework placed in a specific layer and door linework placed in a different layer. The engineer (or you if you have autocad) can then make each of those layers use a specific line type.

??

Karl

Re: ac 12 'core only' question

Anonymous — Tue, 01 Jul 2008 20:29:29 GMT

Hi Karl
Thanks for your thoughtful comments.
First, my structural engineer gives me a break on pricing if I do the red-line corrections myself, including the details he may add, because he is not a fan of being on computers as much as some of us are.
So, that being said, he prefers to red-line printed sheets.

Also because, he's a practicing General Contractor, who really gets how things are built in the field, I wouldn't even think about using anyone else.
Plus I stopped using autocad myself at v9. (1989).

About the doors vs windows, it does make a difference here in earthquake county.
Many windows ,if not too large,can be made to be "mitigated" openings.

With correct blocking and strapping the sheer value of a windowed wall can be used as continuous, Not so with a door.
Also what type of connection member you use at sheer panel joints or at the end of a sheer panel call out matters. 2x's have to be calculated by the nails that hold them together,
whereas 4x's do not and are much prefered.
Hope that helps explain it.

Bier

Re: ac 12 'core only' question

Karl Ottenstein — Tue, 01 Jul 2008 21:05:14 GMT

Bier wrote:
With correct blocking and strapping the sheer value of a windowed wall can be used as continuous, Not so with a door.

Thanks for the education! 🙂 I assume it is the fixed windows that provide the additional shear value?

Nothing directly in 12 to help identify the window openings. (If there was a model view option that would allow window labels to be visible even when the window was represented only by opening lines, that would be perhaps an OK workaround - but not possible.)

Cheers,
Karl

Re: ac 12 'core only' question

Anonymous — Tue, 01 Jul 2008 21:51:47 GMT

Well. Show Windows with contour and Doors without.

Re: ac 12 'core only' question

Anonymous — Wed, 02 Jul 2008 00:10:42 GMT

Karl
Actually it does not matter what kind of window it is, it is not the window that provides the "continuous" shear calculation. Think of a truss or steel beam with it's "holes/openings".
With the proper connection/continuation of the "member" the unit acts as a whole. Example, even Simpsons "strong walls" can have holes/slots field drilled or cut (within defined spaces), without compromising the structural values beyond design point.

Not exactly the same, but I think that might give you a mental 3d visualization of the "controlled window opening" allowance that a structural engineer (or designer following strict guidelines) might apply to a wall with a window verses a wall with a door.

So sense it is my structural engineer requesting the beam/header lines, at openings (and the "columns" on either side of openings, and beyond) (which I like very much), it just makes sense, without having to actually place a beam at every structural opening, my hope springs eternal for that option(s).

Miki
Thanks for your contour suggestion.
But I will continue to have to draw in lines and "columns" in the non-BIm way of the ancients.
Bier

Re: ac 12 'core only' question

cremsberg — Wed, 24 Dec 2008 16:28:15 GMT

It seems to me that only AC12 window & door library parts are "smart" about Core Only or entire Entire Structure display options. If you want to show casings in AC12 with Core Only display, then use older library parts, but they will still hover away from wall if you have finishes in a composite wall.

See this thread:
http://archicad-talk.graphisoft.com/viewtopic.php?t=26558&highlight=