topic Re: upper walls not recognized in energy model structures in Sustainable design

upper walls not recognized in energy model structures

heathldesign — Wed, 24 May 2023 23:43:20 GMT

hey all,

I have a model and for the first time, i'm playing with the energy evaluation, yipee. i have a single zone applied to the whole floor area, and when i update the zone in the energy model review i can see a list of structures that it has captured, the roofs, floor slab, and the lower exterior walls. but i have pony walls on the roof story that it doesn't capture. they are on the same layer as the main floor walls, their later is turned on in the energy evaluation layer group, the walls are on the roof story and the zone extends up into the roof story. why are they not captured?

see the pics

Re: upper walls not recognized in energy model structures

Barry Kelly — Thu, 25 May 2023 01:29:24 GMT

Zones can span multiple storeys in 3D, but if I am not mistaken they do not show on all related stories.

Therefore the other storeys do not recognise the zone.

I think you have to place a separate zone on each storey.

Barry.

Re: upper walls not recognized in energy model structures

heathldesign — Thu, 25 May 2023 18:07:50 GMT

Hi Barry,

nope. i created a new zone for the vault area or the roof storey, made sure the main floor zone is linked to the roof storey and the roof zone base is set to 0", it's cropped to the roof and it all looks good, but the upper walls do not show in the energy model 3d, and the wall structures are not listed.

Re: upper walls not recognized in energy model structures

heathldesign — Thu, 25 May 2023 18:36:37 GMT

now no walls appear! i can see the zones and they are cropped correctly, the roof and slab appear in the structure list, i can select the roof and slabs in the structure list and they are highlighted in 3D but no walls at all. i have quite archicad and repaired the model and restarted my computer. and now this. i don't have time for this.

Re: upper walls not recognized in energy model structures

heathldesign — Thu, 25 May 2023 18:46:50 GMT

deleted the zones and started again. right back to where to was last night. the upper walls in the roof storey are not being captured.

Re: upper walls not recognized in energy model structures

heathldesign — Thu, 25 May 2023 19:20:00 GMT

so for some reason, that must be related to the issue, the roof zone is not the same footprint as the main floor zone. see pic. i have been very careful and checked. both zones were drawn with the construction method to the core elements, not the finish. both the upper and lower walls are the same composite, both on the same layer, both storey views are set to the same layer combination, i have updated both zones in the thermal block. both zones are in the same thermal block, though i did try them in separate blocks. two questions then

1. what other settings do i need to check to get the upper walls to capture?

2. why do the two zones have different footprints?

Re: upper walls not recognized in energy model structures

Barry Kelly — Fri, 26 May 2023 01:32:19 GMT

I am not going to be of much help as I have not used the energy evaluation.

Sounds like you have the zones positioned properly.

But if the zone areas are not matching, is it because the upper walls and the upper zone heights do not match?

Barry.

Re: upper walls not recognized in energy model structures

heathldesign — Fri, 26 May 2023 05:02:48 GMT

Say it isn’t so! Barry, you have come through so many times for me. I guess you’re only human, such a shock.

I have looked closely at the wall junctions, and I do know that something isn’t quite right with the two gables. The long wall parallel to the roof slope joins seamlessly with the wall below, the the gable wall joints are visible in 3d and sections so I know something isn’t right, but I can’t for the life of me figure it out. I have checked elevation, and alignment with the wall below, redrawn them veeeeeery carefully and still there is a visible joint. However, I don’t think that explains why the walls on the roof storey aren’t capturing in the energy model. At this rate, I may not be able to use ac energy evaluation myself. Learning a new tool is often a challenge, but when you can’t even get out of the gate, it doesn’t bode well. PHPP is a lot of work, but but at least it does work.

Re: upper walls not recognized in energy model structures

heathldesign — Mon, 29 May 2023 18:52:47 GMT

so, anybody?

Re: upper walls not recognized in energy model structures

heathldesign — Mon, 29 May 2023 23:07:53 GMT

ok, i'm getting really fed up with AC26. for whatever reason, i now have the upper walls captured. i deleted the zones, quit AC, restarted and repaired the model, placed new zones etc. and now the upper walls are captured. goodie. i have no idea what the issue was. BUT... the instructions say that all objects that are not part of the envelope, like beams, columns etc. must be on hidden layers. done. i have a composite roof with a separate uninsulated a drop ceiling, specifically made this way because i don't want it to be referenced in the energy evaluation, the ceiling is on it's own layer and i have that layer hidden in the energy evaluation layer combo. the instructions also warn of not having these parallel surfaces and if one must, that that layer is hidden. i must and it is hidden. so what i have to deal with now, is that because the zones are automatically relating to the wall finish, in this case gypsum board, regardless of how i place them or any manual changes to the zone boundary, and because my drop ceiling is merged with the walls, which it needs to do to be correctly represented on the plans, the wall structures have holes where the drop ceiling meets them. see pic. also notice that the shower pan has left a hole in the slab structure even though it's layer is hidden. i can't have holes in the structures in an energy model for obvious reasons. so what's the solution or work around?

Re: upper walls not recognized in energy model structures

heathldesign — Thu, 01 Jun 2023 21:39:44 GMT

anybody? no?

Re: upper walls not recognized in energy model structures

Strawbale23 — Sun, 09 Jul 2023 10:42:19 GMT

I share your pain and unfortunately cannot help.

I got excited and delved into the energy analysis and quickly ran into the type of problems you are describing. I'm sure its fine as long as the building is a simple box. As soon as it gets anything even slightly complicated AC starts to run into problems. I just gave up.

Same with the renovation tools, I was excited when they came out and then quickly realized they are not really fit for purpose for real world application unfortunately.