topic Re: Archicad 25 Redshift in Visualization

Archicad 25 Redshift

Thomas Holm — Thu, 11 May 2023 09:50:21 GMT

Hi all!
In David Tomic’s youtube introduktion to AC25,
He mentions ”Redshift” as an upcoming (later) rendering option (at least in Australia). .
As I’ve never heard of this, I’d very much appreciate if someone would enlighten me on this subject. I seem to be unable to find any info on Graphisoft.com.
A link perhaps? Or does anyone know more?

Re: Archicad 25 Redshift

Podolsky — Wed, 14 Jul 2021 21:57:03 GMT

Redshift is a new generation rendering solution by Maxon.
It uses most likely light calculation algorithm called Monte Carlo or Metropolis Light Transport or some modification of it. It's more precise photon distribution algorithm, that achieves next level of photo-realism. Very typical set for this sort of renderings - GPU powered, support of really huge scenes, natural subsurface-scattering, natural materials libraries (shading), natural motion blur etc.
Pioneers of commercial renders was Maxwell Render, then Felix, then Arnold... So today it's quite long list of different software that doing more-less the same. They all working on the same principle - to make renders there as simple as take a digital photo but they all take a lot of CPU or GPU power. So you need good video card to get fast render.
At this time this is a solution from Maxon.
This is good news. I was writing about it - that modern rendering engine is needed.

https://www.redshift3d.com/product

Re: Archicad 25 Redshift

Thomas Holm — Thu, 15 Jul 2021 08:37:39 GMT

Interesting!
I’d also like to hear from someone who’s used it.
I’ve got the top MacBookPro with the Amd 550 GPU. I want to use the Mac and Redshift seems to be available.
Currently I’m using Twinmotion for renderings for clients. Although it crashes a lot, its speed and ease of use amazes me. Some critizise it’s quality but it is quite enough for my use. Its speed lets me tweak the images in a way that there’s simply no time for me to do with cinema4D, for example. But I’m a bit reluctant to bet the company on TwinM because of the Epic games - Apple dispute. And I was thinking another GPU renderer like Redshift might work - if it’s fast?

Re: Archicad 25 Redshift

Podolsky — Thu, 15 Jul 2021 09:16:05 GMT

Yes, problem of Twinmotion is rendering quality. Because it uses really old rendering techniques - I guess radiocity. Radiocity it was algorithm, developed in 60-ies to calculate spread of radiation. It based on the fact, that each part of surface can become emitter or electromagnetic waves (alfa, beta, gamma...). In computers radiocity started to use in images production and was one of the first (maybe first) global illumination algorithm. It actually divides each surface into mesh and each cell of the mesh becoming a small lamp. Algorithm calculates how the light energy is coming from the primary source (sun, sky, lamps) and redistributes between cells of mentioned mesh.
20 years ago Twinmotion would look like science fiction software from the future, today it just a software. Exists better on the market.

Re: Archicad 25 Redshift

runxel — Thu, 15 Jul 2021 10:35:59 GMT

Now that is a thrilling topic.
I also wondered about the future of Cinerender (or Cineware as its called now) and if GS will do the switch again.

Maxon, the company of Cinemax4D, who also is part of the Nemetschek family, axquired Redshift in 2019. And while back Maxon promised that "nothing would change" – well of course it did.
Following this article Maxon has stopped the development of its ProRender, which was their own take on the world of GPU-accelerated rendering, and even removed it from C4D alltogether, but also halted the development of the integrated renderer [physical and standard] (!).
So their master plan is to substitute all of their original 3 renderers with Redshift.

And since GS has this kind of cooperation with Maxon they (we) will be affected too, obviously.
Let's see if and when GS drops the surprise.

Re: Archicad 25 Redshift

Thomas Holm — Thu, 15 Jul 2021 12:01:59 GMT

Podolsky wrote:
Yes, problem of Twinmotion is rendering quality. Because it uses really old rendering techniques - I guess radiocity….

I’m sorry, TwinM doesn’t use radiosity. And I find its quality sufficient. Speed is premium for me.
But I started this thread to find some more info about Archicad’s plansfor redshift.
Anybody?

Re: Archicad 25 Redshift

Thomas Holm — Thu, 15 Jul 2021 12:05:20 GMT

runxel wrote:
that is a thrilling topic.
Let's see if and when GS drops the surprise.

They obviously have, in Australia. I just want more, here!

Re: Archicad 25 Redshift

Anonymous — Thu, 15 Jul 2021 16:40:17 GMT

IMHO I don't see any advantage for Architects to use AC internal engines (Say Cinerender, Redshift, Maxwell or whatever) to present their projects. I mean: The idea of having to built an object/texture library from scratch that will in the end be way inferior of what TM, Enscape and Lumion offer doesn't make sense to me. Specially with these new real time render plugins.
My 2cts.

Re: Archicad 25 Redshift

mikas — Thu, 15 Jul 2021 17:02:43 GMT

ProRender was very promising, but I see it's not gonna be in Maxon (C4D) portfolio anymore, and definitely never gonna make it to ArchiCAD. I kind of liked it while it was momentarily there in C4D. I did a few experiments with it in the early days.

Now I am on TwinMotion. Like above, I feel it's sufficient quality and really fast. I mean fast it is. Like instant.

Sure I can get better looking results with CineRender, but that would take days or even weeks to render sometimes. With TM I am ready-set-go in hours or a couple of days maybe. That is if the model and the materials are structured ideally for this purpose in the beginning. And now they are, at least with us they do.

I agree TwinMotion is not the top notch renderer there is out in there available today. Epic is not going to stop development though, so we might see their newest game engine enhancements in TM too. At least I hope so.

Please Youtube yourself and go and see "nanite" and "lumen" features in Unreal Engine 5 prerelease gaming engine. Truly awesome development, I must say.

I think I need to install that stuff for myself to experiment with it.

And RedShift is good stuff, I have studied it, and seen a couple of demos too.

Re: Archicad 25 Redshift

mikas — Thu, 15 Jul 2021 18:44:42 GMT

I don't feel very confindent about TwinMotion rigth now..

https://twinmotionhelp.epicgames.com/s/question/0D54z0000749rsQCAQ/is-a-direct-link-available-from-archicad-25-to-twinmotion?language=en_US

https://twinmotionhelp.epicgames.com/s/question/0D54z000073ZCLzCAO/archicad-version-25-was-just-released-to-the-publicplease-let-us-know-when-we-could-expect-an-updated-direct-link-plugin-for-this-releasethank-you?language=en_US

But we are early on with this I think. Let's calm down and wait for a moment. I would like to see alternatives even though RedShift seems a competent defender to all the others. We need some choice.

Sorry a little OffTopic.

Re: Archicad 25 Redshift

Thomas Holm — Wed, 21 Jul 2021 13:58:58 GMT

On the contrary, I find it encouraging that both these posts have got direct answers from Epic developers. And it's also a positive sign that they're developing a Datasmith link for Archicad, since there is one for Revit already.

My only issue with this is that if Epic are thinking that Graphisoft are planning to severe their support for Twinmotion, I guess Epic will stop working on it too.

From what I've seen, Redshift looks lika a very substantial upgrade if it's replacing Cinerender, and I don't doubt that it's rendering speed is adequate. But for my workflow, Twinmotions speed isn't just about the rendering. It's also that Twinmotion's vegetation tools and assets (trees etc) are so quick and easy to work with.

While its asset library is quite limited, the ease of working with it makes it ideal for my use, quick visualisations for clients. The tools in combination with render speed gives me time to tweak the images in a way that's practically impossible with Cinerender.

So I worry that Graphisoft don't understand this, and by implementing Redshift in the same complex way they've done with Cinerender, make it unusable for me, while at the same time killing the link with Twinmotion.
I hope I'm wrong. (I guess I'm too old anyway...)

mikas wrote:
I don't feel very confindent about TwinMotion rigth now..

https://twinmotionhelp.epicgames.com/s/question/0D54z0000749rsQCAQ/is-a-direct-link-available-from-archicad-25-to-twinmotion?language=en_US

https://twinmotionhelp.epicgames.com/s/question/0D54z000073ZCLzCAO/archicad-version-25-was-just-released-to-the-publicplease-let-us-know-when-we-could-expect-an-updated-direct-link-plugin-for-this-releasethank-you?language=en_US

But we are early on with this I think. Let's calm down and wait for a moment. I would like to see alternatives even though RedShift seems a competent defender to all the others. We need some choice.

Sorry a little OffTopic.

Re: Archicad 25 Redshift

DGSketcher — Wed, 21 Jul 2021 19:24:17 GMT

You guys might like to take a look at this specs page... https://www.maxon.net/en/requirements/redshift-requirements. My 2 year old iMac with Radeon Pro 580X 8Gb doesn't make the cut.

If Maxon have halted other product development, such a high benchmark will raise questions about what we are supposed to use in AC if 95% of hardware isn't fast enough for Redshift. Is Maxon being ring fenced by Nemetshek as a high end render developer and they will only deliver OEM basic render code for use in AC, if you want Redshift you will need to pay Maxon for it.? Sounds a bit similar to the TM strategy.

Re: Archicad 25 Redshift

Steve Jepson — Thu, 22 Jul 2021 18:15:23 GMT

For me, the ability to import the geometry of the ArchiCAD model to a Rendering program of my choice is worth more than whatever rendering engine happens to come with ArchiCAD.
However, we are never going to pay less to use ArchiCAD without a rendering engine anyway. GRAPHISOFT is not trying to reduce the cost of using their program - they are only looking for ways to validate an increase in how much they can charge us to use the program. But still, this is certainly the best program of its kind that I know about, and I enjoy using it very much.

Re: Archicad 25 Redshift

Brett Brown — Thu, 22 Jul 2021 20:33:11 GMT

Steve wrote:
However, we are never going to pay less to use ArchiCAD without a rendering engine anyway.

Thats exactly what the SOLO version is and without everything to do with Teamwork.

Re: Archicad 25 Redshift

Carstenem — Thu, 22 Jul 2021 22:40:35 GMT

I like to some feedback in regards to Redshift or any other render Software from a professional point of view. As a 3D Visualisation Artist for good 20 years that might be helpful.
There are now days many good render engine out there but all of them have something in common, they still need to be operated by the user. This is the key point to any render engine. Most of you know vray and Corona are the most widely used engines by professionals but even they don’t have a “magic button” to produce amazing renders. I am on many forums and not one week goes by without someone asking to please share the render settings. Render settings by themselves are useless and I tell you why.

Every image is different in regards to the camera, the light, the textures, the model, etc. A good example is an interior render. If you have an interior with mostly darker colors/materials/textures and we share the settings for this render to someone who likes to have an internal view with mostly lighter colors materials, then the scene will be too light, most likely washed out. This is because the light bounces around much further and stronger then with darker colors/materials.
Your room might have more or less windows, or different day light, again this will influence the settings needed in render engines. I think you get the point about sharing settings just something I wanted to clear up.

As you can see it comes down to knowledge on how not just to use any render engine but the 3 key elements of a great visual which are, the 3D model, the textures and the scene lighting. This means the render engine only counts for 33% of your final image, interesting isn’t it?

Twinmotion, all this above counts of course for Twnimotion too. It is a very powerful engine and used right the images produced are pretty good. On top of this it will render way faster than vray, Corona, Redshift, etc ever can. This is even more important when you produce videos.

Yes the quality might not be as high as vray or Corona but if you look at some of the examples below Twinmotion can produce images and videos than are more than satisfactory for most of your clients.

On another note I saw someone is concerned about the direct link in AC25. Direct links are nice but I only use fbx exports, they are much more flexible and only take a couple more clicks even when updating a model or models.

I will be releasing a Twinmotion course for Interior Designer and Architects next month in which I show how to push Twinmotion to the limits. A lot of this course you can actually implement with any other render engine too which is quite helpful.

The two images you see below are raw renders from Twinmotion apart from the background image I have added behind the glass, like a photomontage. Yes no alpha channel in TM so I had to create a fake one which is quite easy to to, if you know how The video again raw TM export no post.

Cheers Carsten

Video example teaser:

Re: Archicad 25 Redshift

Thomas Holm — Sun, 25 Jul 2021 21:00:48 GMT

Thanks for your valuable input, Carsten!
But I'm still missing any info from Graphisoft regarding their plans for Redshift. How come only Australians are blessed?

Re: Archicad 25 Redshift

Carstenem — Sun, 25 Jul 2021 22:06:43 GMT

You are welcome! Yes I only found out through reading some posts that it seems only the Aussies have Redshift at the moment, kind of strange.

Re: Archicad 25 Redshift

Barry Kelly — Mon, 26 Jul 2021 01:34:11 GMT

Carstenem wrote:
Yes I only found out through reading some posts that it seems only the Aussies have Redshift at the moment, kind of strange.

As far as I know we don't actually have it yet.
Just that it was mentioned in the AUS Archicad launch webinar as a future update.

Barry.

Re: Archicad 25 Redshift

Carstenem — Mon, 26 Jul 2021 05:29:33 GMT

Actually that is correct still Cenerender atm

Re: Archicad 25 Redshift

Thomas Holm — Mon, 26 Jul 2021 19:27:27 GMT

Precisely.
What I'm a little envious about is that only Aussies are trusted enough to get this info.
I want the information too!

Barry wrote:
As far as I know we don't actually have it yet.
Just that it was mentioned in the AUS Archicad launch webinar as a future update.
Barry.