topic Re: Making Material-do's & don't, file size/type rec'd. in Visualization

Making Material-do's & don't, file size/type rec'd. Help

Anonymous — Thu, 11 May 2023 10:59:41 GMT

I am making new materials to match virtually everything we do in a home, so I am setting up hundreds of images at this time. Since this is so time-consuming and I haven't worked with Archicad long enough to know the potential pitfalls I may be walking into, I was hoping the good people here at this forum could give me any advice on the best way to go about doing this as well as anything I should be sure to avoid.

Background facts:

1. I create all my photos with a high-end Nikon Digital Camera in high resolution

2. I use Photoshop to edit the photo

3. I save the photo as a jpg into my custom folder for all my images

4. I model almost every component of my homes so my pln files are averaging about 100 megs per house

5. I want these high quality images so my renderings will be as authentic and aesthetically pleasing as possible

6. When I set up the material, I usually specify it s size to match the photo. Ex: I saved an image of a 4" x 4" tile and set it up in photoshop to be exactly 4", then when its brought into the material settings dialogue, I specify the texture to be 4"x4" so everything corresponds.

My questions are:

1. Is jpeg the best format?
2. Should I try to keep my images under a certain size
3. Are there any nuances I should be aware of when setting all these images up?

Any other suggestions or things I should be thinking about as I am doing this?

Thank you

Re: Making Material-do's & don't, file size/type rec'd.

Erika Epstein — Wed, 01 Nov 2006 05:34:30 GMT

vincon2 wrote:
Any other suggestions or things I should be thinking about as I am doing this?

Thank you

Buy Dwight Atkinson's books.

Re: Making Material-do's & don't, file size/type rec'd.

Dwight — Wed, 01 Nov 2006 07:24:27 GMT

The size of a texture image is related to the final size of the rendering and how close the viewpoint gets to any given surface.

The rule is no less than one pixel of texture data for one pixel of rendering. Your high resolution textures will consume lots of RAM, resulting in a slower rendering, but these same textures will make really big renderings and close-up views without any chromatic abberation or video smearing.

While I admire your desire for detail, you should carefully assess the closeness of viewpoint and size of your renderings. This is easy to do by measuring rendered pixels. I have successful texture maps as small as 20x40 pixels for perforated metal and individual texture files as large as 3 Mb - for full sized, full page wood grain rendering.

LightWorks takes a long time to make a rendering, especially if you use the realistic sun shader. So, it is not productive to try for huge renderings and therefore using all large texture maps is a waste of time.

JPEG sucks because of its inability to contain an alpha channel, altho you CAN alternatively use a masking file for an alpha channel in LightWorks shaders. That's a lot of extra work and stops you applying the Internal engine material automatically in LightWorks. JPEG files also contain compression artifacts that interfere with smooth Photoshop manipulation post-rendering.

If you want to spend your time to good effect, spend less time on texture mapping and more time learning to control lighting.

Re: Making Material-do's & don't, file size/type rec'd.

Anonymous — Wed, 01 Nov 2006 12:56:42 GMT

Dwight wrote:
The size of a texture image is related to the final size of the rendering and how close the viewpoint gets to any given surface.

The rule is no less than one pixel of texture data for one pixel of rendering. Your high resolution textures will consume lots of RAM, resulting in a slower rendering, but these same textures will make really big renderings and close-up views without any chromatic abberation or video smearing.

While I admire your desire for detail, you should carefully assess the closeness of viewpoint and size of your renderings. This is easy to do by measuring rendered pixels. I have successful texture maps as small as 20x40 pixels for perforated metal and individual texture files as large as 3 Mb - for full sized, full page wood grain rendering.

LightWorks takes a long time to make a rendering, especially if you use the realistic sun shader. So, it is not productive to try for huge renderings and therefore using all large texture maps is a waste of time.

JPEG sucks because of its inability to contain an alpha channel, altho you CAN alternatively use a masking file for an alpha channel in LightWorks shaders. That's a lot of extra work and stops you applying the Internal engine material automatically in LightWorks. JPEG files also contain compression artifacts that interfere with smooth Photoshop manipulation post-rendering.

If you want to spend your time to good effect, spend less time on texture mapping and more time learning to control lighting.

Thanks.

Your over my head in much of what you've said. Until I can learn everything you described, should I continue to save my images as jpegs or some other file extension?

I have to load these material textures now because I'm using them in my schedules as well, so I need something to pass until I can learn how to control lighting, etc.

Do you have any training courses in or near Texas soon?

Re: Making Material-do's & don't, file size/type rec'd.

Dwight — Wed, 01 Nov 2006 15:55:37 GMT

-- many people find JPEG acceptable, but it is not the best.

-- not enough interest in Texas to do a seminar.

Re: Making Material-do's & don't, file size/type rec'd.

Anonymous — Wed, 01 Nov 2006 16:09:01 GMT

Dwight wrote:
-- many people find JPEG acceptable, but it is not the best.

-- not enough interest in Texas to do a seminar.

I have lots of air miles and love to travel, what is your schedule for the coming 6 to 12 months amd maybe I'll fly in wherever you have your next one

Re: Making Material-do's & don't, file size/type rec'd.

Dwight — Wed, 01 Nov 2006 16:20:02 GMT

Smart move, rather than flailing around for days.

At the end of January, I plan three, full day seminars:
Oakland, Jan 30
Los Angeles, Jan 31
and
Orange County, Feb 1

The seats always sell out in California, so act now.
California folks know quality.

You should order my book in the meantime. See below. Quick service.

PM me for details.

Re: Making Material-do's & don't, file size/type rec'd.

Anonymous — Wed, 01 Nov 2006 16:39:45 GMT

Dwight wrote:
Smart move, rather than flailing around for days.

At the end of January, I plan three, full day seminars:
Oakland, Jan 30
Los Angeles, Jan 31
and
Orange County, Feb 1

The seats always sell out in California, so act now.
California folks know quality.

You should order my book in the meantime. See below. Quick service.

PM me for details.

Thanks for the info. Who's running these seminars? Digital Visions? Other?

I actually have your book, I think I may even have both books. Ive been learning Archicad for about 15 months and I'm just starting to get to learning about doing renderings that aren't out of the box.

With all that I an trying to learn, I just haven't been able to give extended time to concentrating on your book, but it looks very good. Is there a section in there that I overlooked that deals with file types, sizes, etc?

Re: Making Material-do's & don't, file size/type rec'd.

Dwight — Wed, 01 Nov 2006 16:42:06 GMT

page 110

Re: Making Material-do's & don't, file size/type rec'd.

Anonymous — Wed, 01 Nov 2006 17:01:18 GMT

Dwight wrote:
page 110

thanks

Who is running these seminars?

How do I sign up?

Who do I contact, etc, etc?

Re: Making Material-do's & don't, file size/type rec'd.

Karl Ottenstein — Thu, 02 Nov 2006 00:13:01 GMT

vincon2 wrote:
Until I can learn everything you described, should I continue to save my images as jpegs or some other file extension?

Hi Jeff,

I posted a 2 page response yesterday that seems to have disappeared.

Dwight hit on many of my points (including reading his book for the pixel info in the final texture map).

The answer to the above question is that you should take your original images (which should be huge compared to most final textures) with as many pixels as possible in a lossless format. RAW format is the ideal because you have adjustment latitude after the fact. TIF is probably next best.

Always keep your original images untouched. Modify copies. Originals will always be there when you discover in 12 months that you want a different effect. Modifications continually reduce the quality of the digital photo information - can't bring back what you lose.

MOST important is how and what you take pictures of. If you are going to learn to make textures later, you should at least take photos that will be useful. The keys:

1. Use a neutral lens focal length that has minimal distortion to make seamless tiling easier. To test your lens setting, take a photo of a piece of graph paper. Open the image in photoshop and use the Offset filter to slide the image up and to the left. If the lines align, you have zero distortion. Another visible option is to just press ctrl-' in PS to display the grid and see if your photo lines are straight.

2. Be very careful of lighting. You do not want any specular in the images that you take - they will make odd repeating patterns in your texture. Let the rendering engine add the specular.

Make sure the the lighting is even or flat. Uneven illumination will also result in repeat patterns. For a single shot, you can correct this in PS good enough to the human eye. For a seamless texture, there will be color aberrations/etc that generate a repeat.

Take a photo of as much of the sample as you can. For example, do not take a 2' x 2' crop of grass or bricks - the repeat pattern will be very obvious. The better Dosch textures available for Artlantis R and Studio, for example, have photos of entire brick walls - look way better than the ArchiCAD textures that show the repeats.

3. Have fun and take more picture not fewer. Deleting down the road is easier than wishing you had taken more... 🙂

Cheers,
Karl

Re: Making Material-do's & don't, file size/type rec'd.

Anonymous — Thu, 02 Nov 2006 15:42:55 GMT

Dwight wrote:
-not enough interest in Texas to do a seminar.

how about Florida? South Florida?

Re: Making Material-do's & don't, file size/type rec'd.

Dwight — Thu, 02 Nov 2006 17:39:26 GMT

And the same goes for Florida, altho I do have some public art business down there and will be in touch if there's a trip in it.

Any one interested in my seminar should come to one of the California events.

Re: Making Material-do's & don't, file size/type rec'd.

Anonymous — Fri, 03 Nov 2006 16:17:32 GMT

Karl wrote:
vincon2 wrote:
Until I can learn everything you described, should I continue to save my images as jpegs or some other file extension?
Hi Jeff,

I posted a 2 page response yesterday that seems to have disappeared.

Dwight hit on many of my points (including reading his book for the pixel info in the final texture map).

The answer to the above question is that you should take your original images (which should be huge compared to most final textures) with as many pixels as possible in a lossless format. RAW format is the ideal because you have adjustment latitude after the fact. TIF is probably next best.

Always keep your original images untouched. Modify copies. Originals will always be there when you discover in 12 months that you want a different effect. Modifications continually reduce the quality of the digital photo information - can't bring back what you lose.

MOST important is how and what you take pictures of. If you are going to learn to make textures later, you should at least take photos that will be useful. The keys:

1. Use a neutral lens focal length that has minimal distortion to make seamless tiling easier. To test your lens setting, take a photo of a piece of graph paper. Open the image in photoshop and use the Offset filter to slide the image up and to the left. If the lines align, you have zero distortion. Another visible option is to just press ctrl-' in PS to display the grid and see if your photo lines are straight.

2. Be very careful of lighting. You do not want any specular in the images that you take - they will make odd repeating patterns in your texture. Let the rendering engine add the specular.

Make sure the the lighting is even or flat. Uneven illumination will also result in repeat patterns. For a single shot, you can correct this in PS good enough to the human eye. For a seamless texture, there will be color aberrations/etc that generate a repeat.

Take a photo of as much of the sample as you can. For example, do not take a 2' x 2' crop of grass or bricks - the repeat pattern will be very obvious. The better Dosch textures available for Artlantis R and Studio, for example, have photos of entire brick walls - look way better than the ArchiCAD textures that show the repeats.

3. Have fun and take more picture not fewer. Deleting down the road is easier than wishing you had taken more... 🙂

Cheers,
Karl

Thanks Karl,

Now I need a book to explain what you just wrote. I'm very new at all of this and most of the terms are flying over my head. I read up on my photoshop and have been studying my Camera manual to attempt to underestand what you've said.

Regarding #1:

I just bought a Digital Nikon D50 and set up a tent with flourescent lighting to do controlled shots of objects like tile etc. It has an 18 to 60mm lense. I put a large papercutter on the bottom of my light box which has a grid on it and aligned it with my camera which is mounted on a heavy duty tripod that allows me to contol level in 3 places. So I think I have a pretty square and level shot above what I am shooting and I haven't noticed any curviture to my images, so I hope my lense is ok.

Am I on the right track here?

Regarding #2:

For my indoor shots of smaller materials, I hope my light box will cover this. For outdoor shots, I'm going to have to learn a lot more about photography.

What do you mean by "specular" and how can I control that?

Regarding #3:

I go picture crazy with my digital camera, its such a luxury to be able to have a good digital format where I can keep shooting until I finally get a good shot.

Did you ever find your 2-page reply? If so, send me the link where its at please.

Re: Making Material-do's & don't, file size/type rec'd.

Karl Ottenstein — Fri, 03 Nov 2006 18:54:57 GMT

vincon2 wrote:
What do you mean by "specular" and how can I control that?

See Dwight's book, among other references. Specular is the illumination highlighting seen when light bounces off reflective surfaces, shape and appearance influenced by the structure of the reflective coating. For example, if you have glazed tile, in flat light, you will see the tile pattern. In angled sunlight, you will see a specular light reflection (burn) that completely hides the actual tile. Taking a photo of this tile in a flat light (cloudy - and then white balance adjust in RAW settings) allows you to use the same tile pattern for a matte or glazed effect - the rendering engine and material settings are what determine the reflectance and specular effects. (I won't even go into alpha channels - see Dwight's book.)

Did you ever find your 2-page reply?

No, I just type into the message box here, so no copies left anywhere else. But, as said, Dwight addressed the other issues.

Making your own materials - of professional quality - is a professional task with a large learning curve if one needs to learn about photography, Photoshop and rendering. It can be fun and rewarding, or frustrating, depending on if you enjoy the process or not. Hope you find it fun. 😉

Karl

Re: Making Material-do's & don't, file size/type rec'd.

Anonymous — Fri, 03 Nov 2006 19:03:38 GMT

Making your own materials - of professional quality - is a professional task with a large learning curve if one needs to learn about photography, Photoshop and rendering. It can be fun and rewarding, or frustrating, depending on if you enjoy the process or not. Hope you find it fun. 😉

Karl

Thanks, it is fun and frustrating because I am under pressur eto get things done while I'm learning. I've always been into photography so its not a terrible stretch for me to learn and I think its worth my while because I need perhaps 1000's of images and this would take way too long and/or cost a fortune i I hired a professional photography to do it all for me.

Are you teaching anything related to this anytime soon at one of your seminars?

Re: Making Material-do's & don't, file size/type rec'd.

Dwight — Fri, 03 Nov 2006 19:04:07 GMT

Specular light is what makes things shiny.

Tiny specules of light reflect from smooth surfaces.

Specules are just coming into the scientific understanding of light and complicate the old argument: whether light is waves, particles or specules.