topic Re: Rendering in Visualization

Rendering

Anonymous — Thu, 11 May 2023 10:43:06 GMT

I cant understand why ArchiCAD has such a poor renderer, this is surely costing Graphisoft huge amounts of lost sales to Architectural Desktop et al that link to VIZ render and 3DS Max

I personally use ArchiCAD and Max together, but there isnt a very good link between the programs, probably because they are from competing companies.

Have graphisoft thought of including something like Mental Ray with ArchiCAD in the same way as Max 6?

Re: Rendering

stefan — Tue, 25 Nov 2003 13:01:48 GMT

The rendering quality of ArchiCAD is mediocre. All shall agree.

The 'connection' between ArchiCAD and 3ds max/VIZ and others is not that bad. The 3ds-export and the obj-export are both usable and most 3D-applications support at least one of them.

From ArchiCAD to Cinema4D
http://www2.asro.kuleuven.ac.be/asro/English/HOME/SBs/tutorial/tips/ac2c4d.htm

From ArchiCAD to others
http://www2.asro.kuleuven.ac.be/asro/English/HOME/SBs/render/render.htm
and
http://www2.asro.kuleuven.ac.be/asro/English/HOME/SBs/tutorial/shootout/shootout.htm

And for max/VIZ
http://www2.asro.kuleuven.ac.be/asro/English/HOME/SBs/render/3dstudio.htm

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Mental Ray is such a specific rendering tool, that you need a "host" with enough control over lights & materials. ArchiCAD is not that host. 3ds max, maya & xsi are much better suited to prepare Mental Ray content (they have much more control over material-parameters, import/export, scene settings etc...)

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I hope Graphisoft will someday find a usable yet userfriendly rendering plugin for ArchiCAD (like AV_Works or ArchiLumos) and include it in the main box, instead of requiring an expensive add-on.

But if they had to choose to what parts to devote their development, then rendering is probably not that high on the priority-list. It can be done as it is now, so no real need.

Re: Rendering

Anonymous — Tue, 25 Nov 2003 15:24:01 GMT

Good point, the only problem is that AutoDesk Revit has a competetive advantage over ArchiCAD in that the same company also owns 3DS Max

I am still happy using ArchiCAD and Max together, an I dont think its that hard to do (in fact using archicad as a modeller to produce AutoCAD 2D drawings is better than the AutoDesk equivalent), but graphisoft may have trouble convincing people.

The cost of ArchiCAD and Viz or Max is greater than Revit and Viz or Max I beleive.

Re: Rendering

Anonymous — Tue, 25 Nov 2003 15:25:06 GMT

Maybe we should have a thread for 3DS Max?

Re: Rendering

Djordje — Tue, 25 Nov 2003 16:40:27 GMT

Andydob wrote:
Good point, the only problem is that AutoDesk Revit has a competetive advantage over ArchiCAD in that the same company also owns 3DS Max

AFAIK it includes AccuRender, which is an independent product? Last version I checked (5) does not have much more connection to the discreet (no, not the same company, except it is also bought by Autodesk as Revit is) products than ArchiCAD. Then again, I might be wrong? I tend not to read the marketing texts too much ...

It is true that ArchiCAD's rendering is bad for these times. Was quite adequate in early days, and still is for quick and drity shots, especially the Sketch one.

However, ArchiCAD is NOT modeling&rendering software, which is pretty popular misconception about it. It is the architectural CAD software, for the architectural design and construction documentation production.

In the typical workflow, it is very probable that the final renderings, which take as much specialized knowledge and time as the design and the construction documentation production, will be done by a dedicated person with a software of their choice, using the same ArchiCAD model. Here is where the proper link becomes essential.

As Stefan said, I personally am more interested in the engineering aspects and tools of ArchiCAD being rich and abundant and working flawlessly, than the rendering part.

Re: Rendering

Djordje — Tue, 25 Nov 2003 16:44:17 GMT

Andydob wrote:
I am still happy using ArchiCAD and Max together, an I dont think its that hard to do (in fact using archicad as a modeller to produce AutoCAD 2D drawings is better than the AutoDesk equivalent), but graphisoft may have trouble convincing people.

Depends on what the people have to do.

On the other hand - you do not need to produce andy AutoCAD drawings in ArchiCAD. 2D in ArchiCAD is as good as any AutoCAD 2D (personal opinion!) and whatever the software, the output does not depend on the software, but on the people using it.

ArchiCAD is equipped for the full architectural production process - except high quality rendering which, if you scrutinize it closely, is not exactly what you need on the building site, except for the site board.

Just IMHO, as always.

Re: Rendering

rgarand — Tue, 25 Nov 2003 18:03:28 GMT

Remember too that AutoCAD (Arch. Desktop2004) is a CAD package ($4195 USD) and 3D Studio VIZ is a Modeling rendering package ($1895 USD). That is $6090 USD. ArchiCAD was $3160 USD when we bought 8.0. So for about half the price you get a pretty good rendering/modeling program.

I have been 3D modeling and rendering for over 10 years now and I have not found a single program that can produce a great rendering. I typically use a minimum of 3 programs for rendering: a modeling program, a rendering program and a post production program. Right now we are moving from Vectorworks/Cinema 4D/Photoshop to ArchiCAD/Cinema 4D/Photoshop.

Just my 2 cents.

Re: Rendering

stefan — Wed, 26 Nov 2003 13:24:17 GMT

rgarand wrote:
Remember too that AutoCAD (Arch. Desktop2004) is a CAD package ($4195 USD) and 3D Studio VIZ is a Modeling rendering package ($1895 USD). That is $6090 USD. ArchiCAD was $3160 USD when we bought 8.0. So for about half the price you get a pretty good rendering/modeling program.

Architectural Desktop 2004 includes a decent rendering solution VIZ Render (which is enough for most people). You still need VIZ or max for better animation and modelling and more material-control, but VIZ Render is capable.

rgarand wrote:
I have been 3D modeling and rendering for over 10 years now and I have not found a single program that can produce a great rendering. I typically use a minimum of 3 programs for rendering: a modeling program, a rendering program and a post production program. Right now we are moving from Vectorworks/Cinema 4D/Photoshop to ArchiCAD/Cinema 4D/Photoshop.
Just my 2 cents.

A single program that can produce a great rendering? You mean a CAD-program?

TurboCAD, Microstation, Revit and now Architectural Desktop all have very good rendering. You sure need to learn to use it, but that goes for all rendering software.

Is the combination VectorWorks-Cinema4D not good? Did you use the link between the two? Or is the upgrade mainly for the ArchiCAD Virtual Building?

ArchiCAD + Cinema4D + Photoshop is probably all you'll ever need to get everything done fine. Maybe add something like Premiere & After Effects and you can do full visualisation services as well 🙂

Re: Rendering

Anonymous — Sun, 11 Jan 2004 01:29:48 GMT

I have had continuing problems with ArchiCAD 8's rendering engine, actually one in particular, that basically makes it useless for any kind of photorendering. I have done some tests to illustrate this and the writeup is here:

http://members.ydl.net/ammacdon/photorender_errors/archicad_lighting_test.html

When we moved to archicad we expected to be able to use the built in photorendering capabilities; since upgrading to archicad 8, we have been unable to do so.

Re: Rendering

Djordje — Sun, 11 Jan 2004 18:03:26 GMT

"ammacdon" wrote:
I have had continuing problems with ArchiCAD 8's rendering engine, actually one in particular, that basically makes it useless for any kind of photorendering./quote]

Switch the shadows on and try again.

Re: Rendering

Anonymous — Mon, 12 Jan 2004 02:26:25 GMT

Djordje wrote:
Switch the shadows on and try again.

shadows? are you referring to shadow casting? because that is selected, as shown in my writeup.

Re: Rendering

Anonymous — Tue, 13 Jan 2004 21:40:44 GMT

Djordje wrote:
Switch the shadows on and try again.

Or perhaps you are referring to turning on the shadows checkbox in the object settings? This also is checked, as you can see from the .pln which is available for download from my writeup page. This strange behaviour makes ArchiCAD useless for any type of interior rendering, as light sources do not cast shadows and bleed across multiple rooms, thus overexposing every surface in the project.

Re: Rendering

Anonymous — Fri, 05 Mar 2004 10:45:13 GMT

To Andydob have you try AV-works Photorealistic rendering engine? A full version is downloadable at:

http://www.abvent.com/us/software/avworks/avw2.asp

Once installed you choose the AV-works Photorealistic Engine instead of ArchiCAD Engine. Without leaving ArchiCAD you will have Reflection, Refraction, Depth of field, Raytracing, 49 lamps with Soft shadows…

Please try it…

Re: Rendering

Tue, 09 Mar 2004 10:06:22 GMT

Alain,

I downloaded the beta test version of AV-Works a few days ago and must say am impressed. Was able to create in short time a rendering superior to what took a colleague using ADT plus Accurender (on the same project) more than two days to complete. Its rendering speed far surpasses the stock Archicad rendering engine. The image quality is very good (not quite as those on your Artlantis gallery) considering the simplicity involved in creating it. I am especially impressed with the seamlessness derived from operating within Archicad.

It's like Djordje said, the abilities of the people using it is more important than the abilities of the software.

Will soon report on the few slight glitches picked up thus far.

Now how about including the sketch and cartoon engines with the AC plug-in?

Regards,

Dirk le Roux

Re: Rendering

Anonymous — Fri, 12 Mar 2004 09:04:18 GMT

Hello Dirk,

Apologize, I'm quite last to reply to your post. Good to hear that you like AV-works. Things are not so easy like in Art*lantis this is due to the fact we have to stick to the ArchiCAD interface. Actually we are finalizing the AV-works add-on and we are looking for some rendering example we could put on our documentation. If you have some rendering to submit please contact me at picard@abvent.fr. If any question use the same address too.

Regards

Alain Picard
Abvent SA

Re: Rendering

Anonymous — Fri, 02 Apr 2004 03:19:55 GMT

yea .... i guess if graphisoft has supported Archicad as a prouduction tool ... and Link it to an advanced modeling and rendering tool as 3d studio max .... i wish that it had a strong link together .... in this case ... it's easier to design Using Archicad than drafting lines with Architectural desktop ,, in the same time i can do custom modeling in 3d max , vis and have the fantastic effect of rendering that no program has competed it (3ds max , vis ) .....
let's say if we used Artlantis ..... i guess lot's of users told me it has a lot's of lacks ... even shaders are so expensive and limited ....and it does'nt model anything too !! it's just a rendering tool which is not that famose as ( 3ds max , vis ) that's why the lack of shader library ...
i hope that i really decide what to use or learn in my future work ??
1.archicad , artlantis , archiglazing , zoom gdl , architerra , photoshop ??
2.Autodesk , 3ds max or vis , photoshop ??
or should i use software from both tracks that has a powerful links to each others ??
i really want to know where to settle with my CAD tools !?
i have seen Designs that was made by Architectural desktop 2004 and modeld , renderd with 3d studio viz ..... it really had a Strong Affect on it's presentation ... the Materials , light effect ,, all stuff was creative and new .... i wish archicad had this duribility

Re: Rendering

stefan — Fri, 02 Apr 2004 08:34:27 GMT

As I replied in another thread, you can perfectly combine ArchiCAD with Autodesk VIZ to have the best of both worlds.

I suggest to do a clean ArchiCAD model (without trees and people, but you can use the ArchiCAD GDL-objects for the furniture) and export that as a 3ds-file, then you can open it in VIZ (you may use the Marc Lorenz plugins, to help with the import) and then add trees, people, moving cars etc... And do the walkthroughs there.

ArchiCAD is fine for what it does and is complete (althouh a bit aging) in the rendering aspects. But other (specialised) tools work fine with it.

Re: Rendering

rm — Fri, 02 Apr 2004 14:46:09 GMT

Djordje wrote:

However, ArchiCAD is NOT modeling&rendering software, which is pretty popular misconception about it. It is the architectural CAD software, for the architectural design and construction documentation production.

It is NOT an unfounded misconception given GS printed advertising in US Architecture magazines. I KNOW you are familiar with their website, it DOES everything possible to lead prospective buyers into believing that AC IS your one-stop source for Architecture Software.

In the typical workflow, it is very probable that the final renderings, which take as much specialized knowledge and time as the design and the construction documentation production, will be done by a dedicated person with a software of their choice, using the same ArchiCAD model. Here is where the proper link becomes essential.

Your assertion is off base from what GS is advertising. Maybe this happens in larger offices, but again, that is NOT AT ALL what GS is advertising!

I know your one of the most generous contributors to this forum, and you contribute MANY helpful solutions. However, your response sounds a bit like a typical corporate response which contradicts its own propaganda.

Given the cost of the software, and I'm sure we pay less in the US than most users in other countries. Those users whom depend on providing a service that is comparible to larger firms look to the software to provide what IS advertised. This is especially important to small and medium sized firms whom don't have the budgets to outsource renderings.

IMO it is futher devaluation of architectural services when we cannot illustrate our designs at the highest level that technology will allow without having to outsource to a digital artist.

That approach further limits the design process. I may, while studying material selections, render my model a dozen times before my final material selection is made. I could never afford to outsource that service. It would limit my creative choices, and probablly cause scheduling delays.

At the end of the day, whether Artlantis gets radiosity, ( Abvent...don't even get me started ) or GS incorporates a trully "Professional" grade rendering engine.....the software upgrade IS a needed addition!

My 2 cents worth.....not sure what the euro conversion is on that

Regards,
Architects Design Forum, Ltd.

Robert Mariani

Re: Rendering

__archiben — Fri, 02 Apr 2004 16:14:56 GMT

rm wrote:
My 2 cents worth.....not sure what the euro conversion is on that

i think that you'll find it's still 2 cents.

it's a rate of exchange that'll never change.

~/archiben

Re: Rendering

Anonymous — Sat, 03 Apr 2004 05:20:44 GMT

rm wrote:
It is NOT an unfounded misconception given GS printed advertising in US Architecture magazines. I KNOW you are familiar with their website, it DOES everything possible to lead prospective buyers into believing that AC IS your one-stop source for Architecture Software.

I totally agree with you here. When ArchiCAD can not do such simple things as cast wall shadows, ie: lights shining through walls (see my post above), Graphisoft's claim that ArchiCAD's rendering can produce "stunning results" and that ArchiCAD is the "complete building design software solution" is a little suspect. When we bought our ArchiCAD licenses we were told it could do basic renderings - not that we would need additional software to do so. In response to stefan, ArchiCAD (even at version is far from "complete" in the rendering aspects.