topic Re: Trying to Move To AC from Revit in Collaboration with other software

Trying to Move To AC from Revit

Anonymous — Sat, 18 Aug 2007 14:21:53 GMT

I am trying to move over from Revit 8,9,10 to AC 10,11 and am struggling to find any smart parametric objects that are free and posted by users. The depository has almost nothing . Is it that GDL is to restrictive for the beginner/average user? With my three year experience in Revit their are thousands of smart families (objects) and they are very easy to create if one can draw they can create objects. Thousands of families are provided free on RevitCity. Any suggestion on where to look for USA based objects? For the most part I like using AC 11 , but finding that it very restrictive when it comes to parametric objects.

Re: Trying to Move To AC from Revit

Djordje — Sun, 19 Aug 2007 05:49:12 GMT

What is it exactly that you are looking for?

Look here:

http://archicad-talk.graphisoft.com/viewtopic.php?t=16673

http://archicad-talk.graphisoft.com/viewtopic.php?t=9296

http://archicad-talk.graphisoft.com/viewtopic.php?t=16673

...

Also, take a look into the manual for the short tutorial how to make objects. About page 231 or so ...

Re: Trying to Move To AC from Revit

TomWaltz — Sun, 19 Aug 2007 12:41:52 GMT

When it comes down to it, GDL is a programming language. You can draw/model elements and save them as objects, but to make them parametric you have to learn enough of the language to make the changes you want.

A lot of people I've seen have resisted wanting to learn GDL and the ones who do learn it see it as a professional skill to make a few bucks on... hence the small number of free parametric objects out there.

Re: Trying to Move To AC from Revit

Anonymous — Mon, 20 Aug 2007 01:31:03 GMT

Interesting post that I hope the future thinkers at Graphisoft are contemplating...most users are not programmers, and would dearly love to have a toolset that allows them to visually build their object of choice.

In ArchiCAD 9 some kind soul(s) put GDL Toolbox on the web for free. Sadly it was never updated to 10 & 11.

And at the ArchiCAD pricepoint I still resist having to pay $$$ for add-ons, and being locked into their upgrade cycle et al.

So Graphisoft, if you could address this in 12 we would really appreciate it!!

Re: Trying to Move To AC from Revit

Anonymous — Mon, 20 Aug 2007 12:04:33 GMT

For the most part I do like AC, it is faster to move around in on larger projects Revit is slow. Not sure if I am going to stay with AC since the objects are very limited and out of the box It is difficult do do a BIM project in total (the hole idea is object based). I have probably purchased an additional $2000 + in objects and add-on's. Graphisoft has a good product but in competing with Revit with GDL as it stands will be their downfall . I have been keeping lists of the pros and cons of both and will soon finish that effort and will see who benifits in my own opinion.

Re: Trying to Move To AC from Revit

TomWaltz — Mon, 20 Aug 2007 13:21:49 GMT

I think it's kind of funny because GDL is so powerful as a feature but only a few people out there really ever get to take advantage of its full capabilities because it's a programming language instead of a widely-usable feature.

I am surprised to see the young architects who take to programming pretty quickly, though. It's possible that in 10 years the two skills may not be so separate (I've seen a lot of Autocad users learn LISP for the same reasons)

Personally, I try to shun 3rd party addons as much as possible (largely due to versioning/upgrading hassles) in favor of writing custom GDL. It puts upgrades and bug correction under my control, not someone else's.

Re: Trying to Move To AC from Revit

Anonymous — Mon, 20 Aug 2007 13:51:08 GMT

I agree with that and If I stay with AC my goal is to learn GDL, several years ago I did some basic programming. Also I have been looking for good bood but no luck, also trying to locate GDL Cookbook any Ideas?

Re: Trying to Move To AC from Revit

Anonymous — Mon, 20 Aug 2007 14:26:07 GMT

ok, so this may be a stupid question, but how long does it take to learn GDL? Obviously this will depend on the users' abilities, the required level of learning and so forth, but roughly? and where and how does one accomplish this? are there any online tutorials etc? anything for free? (us folk in the 3rd world have a hard time paying 1st world prices for tution...)

Re: Trying to Move To AC from Revit

TomWaltz — Mon, 20 Aug 2007 14:26:13 GMT

You can really only get it in PDF from the author. It was really good in it's day, but it was last updated for Archicad 6.5.

I would recommend the "Intro to Object Making" book from tr.graphisoftus.com under "Archicad-Related"

Re: Trying to Move To AC from Revit

Anonymous — Fri, 24 Aug 2007 01:20:00 GMT

Mark wrote:
ok, so this may be a stupid question, but how long does it take to learn GDL?

I'm still learning...

Re: Trying to Move To AC from Revit

Dwight — Fri, 24 Aug 2007 06:21:45 GMT

Mark wrote:
how long does it take to learn GDL?

Forever. It is like learning a language - your vocabulary constantly expands if you stay out of bars. BASIC is the form GDL uses.

Most users build GDL objects from Archicad elements as in the "Object Making" book. These aren't "parametric" but they are adequate for most situations. Turning elements into an object is easy.

Another GDL challenge is accurate measurement. We have some hideous objects formed back when polygon conservation was critical. The obsolete "Woman in Red Dress" for instance: as smooth and graceful as a cigar store Indian. Modern objects demand precise curvature and measurement - and way more polygons.

I achieved my tiny GDL expertise in 1992 when creating a curved wall meant converting a straight wall into a GDL object "BWALL_". Now we make curved walls justlikethat. I was also making fiberglass sculptures with the "ROTATE" and "SWEEP" commands. Now we have the custom profile for that.

As for complex GDL object making using GDL code exclusively, you must enjoy puzzles. Getting the script to run and the parameters to adjust correctly is tedious.

What makes GDL really time consuming is building the interface. You'll see many objects that use a graphic interface. Even listing parameters in a logical way can take as long as scripting an element....

Another issue is that the language expands as Graphisoft makes more GDL commands available to us. If you look at the forum, you'll see issues about how GDL scripts can now refer to internal Archicad data - that is a recent development that challenges the mind far beyond making a hi-chair or a boat.

The puzzle-solving pleasure and object problem-solving aspects are the only real justifications for an architect to learn GDL. Beats playing "Doom." You can get quick with practice, but the tendency is to expand complexity as one learns.

Re: Trying to Move To AC from Revit

Anonymous — Fri, 24 Aug 2007 16:39:51 GMT

It appears from Dewight's response that to get real quality parametric objects will be difficult and time consuming for the average user! I guess this is where Autodesk saw a great chance when they purchased Revit.

I would think this should be a concern for GRAPHISOFT if they don not have a better way of creating parametic objects, since BIM is all about that. Otherwise would one not have just another 3D Cad software on their shelf?

Re: Trying to Move To AC from Revit

Dwight — Fri, 24 Aug 2007 16:42:05 GMT

What's a parametric object in REVIT?

Re: Trying to Move To AC from Revit

Anonymous — Sun, 26 Aug 2007 20:23:07 GMT

I am a long time ArchiCad user who has long hoped that GraphiSOFT could convince manufactures to produce "real" Objects. This has not taken place and it is a sign to me that in general ArchiCAD's user base is to small and therefore not taken seriously. The library parts provided with the program and available through 3rd party "non-manufacturing" vendors is for the most part cartoonish and irrelavent.

The most promising avenue I see for the future is objects generated in Sketchup.

Cheers Cary

Re: Trying to Move To AC from Revit

Richard Morrison — Sun, 26 Aug 2007 21:16:33 GMT

Richard45 wrote:
It appears from Dewight's response that to get real quality parametric objects will be difficult and time consuming for the average user! I guess this is where Autodesk saw a great chance when they purchased Revit.

I would think this should be a concern for GRAPHISOFT if they don not have a better way of creating parametic objects, since BIM is all about that. Otherwise would one not have just another 3D Cad software on their shelf?

It would be easier to address your concerns if you were more specific about what you are trying to "parametize". I have been using AC for about 9 years, and have NEVER had to write my own GDL object. I have created quite a few objects from basic AC tools or tweaked the GDL code in some that I've purchased. There is also SketchUp available as well. I am trying to imagine what you're trying to do that would be limiting if you don't know GDL. GDL is certainly powerful, but you can still have a very happy architectural life if you don't know any GDL at all.

There are plenty of commercially available objects, as well, and frankly, it is far easier and cheaper to just buy and download, say, a $15 (USD) object than to spend even 15 minutes creating my own.

Re: Trying to Move To AC from Revit

Rob — Sun, 26 Aug 2007 23:07:08 GMT

This has not taken place and it is a sign to me that in general ArchiCAD's user base is to small and therefore not taken seriously.

Well, it is not just about GS. I suppose, developing an object library is just the very first step, the maintanace is what actually cost you time and money... there was a fairly big initiative from mostly European furniture companies some time ago but what you are going to do if your production line is going to be changed or is changing fairly quickly?

Secondly, differences in languages (eg. English is not commonly preferred language of continental Europe), metric vs imperial systems - which imposes a big problem (eg 1inch timber gives you some ridiculous number in millimeters which rules out modularity and vice-versa) prevents using particular lib parts in a global proportions so the effective user group sizes are insignificant.

Thirdly, the manufacturers know that the business of architecture is done by going from generic to specific so in other words you will not start to use typical shop-drawn windows when you do not know if your client is actually going to like windows whatsoever (slightly exaggerated to make my point). The final spec usually happens at the very end of the documentation cycle where is usually some final tweaking in product sizes, prices, materials etc...

And last but not least...
Detailed (as real) 3D lib parts could be overkill for the AC file size, speed etc.. which is really unnecessary.. I remember some wise words of my uni professor - the architectural docs is a just symbolic and idealistic representation of the building that you will eventually hate at the end.

Re: Trying to Move To AC from Revit

Dwight — Sun, 26 Aug 2007 23:49:11 GMT

Rob wrote:
building that you will eventually hate at the end.

My hate begins once the client makes his first tasteless intervention.

Re: Trying to Move To AC from Revit

Anonymous — Mon, 27 Aug 2007 14:02:35 GMT

What's a parametric object in REVIT?...The entire project!!!!!

Rob...manufacturers release updated catalogs....so what is the big deal?? When I looked at Revit years ago selecting a door required selecting from a non-graphical list...not the way I wanrted to work. If a window or door manufacturer was to say offer the "parameters" for Cadimage's excellent Door & Window builder we could in essence make selections. Anyhow this is how the big boys do it
Sweets Network Google 3D warehouse

cheers