topic Re: Experience with Stairbuilder in Collaboration with other software

Experience with Stairbuilder

Erich — Sat, 17 Oct 2009 05:07:24 GMT

OK, as I become disillusioned with ArchiCAD stairs, I have a question along similar lines to Don Lee's post about ArchiStair http://archicad-talk.graphisoft.com/viewtopic.php?t=29795

What are folk's experience with Stairbuilder from Cadimage? Can it handle a traditional stair with volutes and goose necks, etc? What do you find its limitations to be? What do you like about it?

Re: Experience with Stairbuilder

Anonymous — Mon, 19 Oct 2009 01:41:26 GMT

If you've never used it before, you'll find a small learning curve. You do need to read the manual, otherwise somethings are difficult to figure out. eg i was having issues with it, because i wasn't using the correct placement method (i hadn't read the manual 😉 )

However once you get used to it, it's fantastic - Light years a head of the native AC stairs.

Re: Experience with Stairbuilder

Anonymous — Mon, 19 Oct 2009 02:21:21 GMT

Hi sdb
I know you are one of the grand masters of AC,(by your posts) but your answer here seemed rather generic.

When you have time could your elaborate a bit?
I got totally frustrated with AC stairs trying to build a set of winders that I knew made code, but AC kept giving me the illegal stair crappp.
Ended up modeling them.

So How does Cadimage stairs stack up with winders?
How capable is it in sectional views of structural details, and the things Erich asked about?

And anything else specific you have time for.
Big requests, I know, but I've watched the movies a while back and did not get my questions answered, yet I'm seriously looking at C.I.S. because don't want to get into the multiple dongle jungle.
Thanks in Advance.
lec

ps. If anyone does not want to go public with comparisons, I'd hold my breath to the test, of any negatives of either in a P.M.

Re: Experience with Stairbuilder

Erich — Mon, 19 Oct 2009 02:41:17 GMT

IF any folks have used both the Stairbuilder add-on as well as the Archistair add-on, I would love to hear current comparisons too.

Re: Experience with Stairbuilder

Anonymous — Mon, 19 Oct 2009 02:49:56 GMT

Hi lec1212
haha thanks for that, but not quite 😉

Yes i'll try & elaborate (i'll give cadimage a heads up & get them to comment also, maybe they'll give u a demo?)

It's split's up the stair process into stairs & handrails.
It's great for winders, as you add each little piece of the stair as you go eg a straight run, then a turn, then a straight run, then a turn etc etc, meaning you can build a very complex stair, where each part of the winder is editable.

Sectional views it give you a lot of 2D pen controls & i think their latest AC13 version hooks into your project's standard pen settings etc.

I haven't used Archistair so i'm not sure how it would compare.
It does work quite differently to the normal AC stair, so at first it can be hard to get your head around. (& yes u don't have to use an extra dongle!!)

Did you have any other specific Qs? as i could upload a couple of screenshots.

Re: Experience with Stairbuilder

Erich — Mon, 19 Oct 2009 02:56:22 GMT

sdb,

Can you show us a section of the Stairbuilder stair? The videos are all plan views and 3D. Does the resultant object, show the stringers etc or is it just a solid? What about the termination of the handrail? What options are available, or can you write your own?

Re: Experience with Stairbuilder

Anonymous — Mon, 19 Oct 2009 03:04:21 GMT

Erich wrote:
can you write your own?

you can't write your own (i guess that would be advanced user?)

i will upload a couple of screenshots shortly.

Re: Experience with Stairbuilder

Anonymous — Mon, 19 Oct 2009 03:14:10 GMT

sdb wrote:
"i guess that would be advanced user?"
Well if you looked at my posts, you could surly see that leaves me out:-)))
lec

Re: Experience with Stairbuilder

ci-JoshOs — Mon, 19 Oct 2009 04:27:04 GMT

You can grab a 30-day trial version from the website if you want to have a play around with it.

Instructions on registering & downloading are here: http://help.cadimagetools.com/#ins-downloading-the-tools

I'll talk to the developers tomorrow and get back to you with some screenshots of what you're looking for

Re: Experience with Stairbuilder

Piotr Dobrowolski — Mon, 19 Oct 2009 07:17:25 GMT

Erich wrote:
IF any folks have used both the Stairbuilder add-on as well as the Archistair add-on, I would love to hear current comparisons too.

I use Archistair mostly - but I checked Stairbuilder - and such tests confirmed I have chosen the better plug...(Archistair 2)

The pros of Stairbuilder: You can "draw" a stair flight and the Railings auto fitting to the stairs and slab edges.
The cons od Stairbuilder: You cannot make a U- shape staircase with wider landing than a stair flight (Which is sometimes mandatory due to local regulations where I practice) - Yes it can be done by workarounds - but You loose flexibility when You combine stairflight+slab+stairflight

The pros of Archistair: You can make virtually any combination fo stairs landings etc. The railing can be adjusted to slabs or even meshes below
The cons od Archistair: You cannot "draw" a stair flight as in the competition.
Not con or pro: The railing does not fit to slab edge or stair but can be adjusted by a polyline (sometimes I miss the feature of Stairbuilders' railing but Archistairs' is more flexible)

General note on Cadimage plugs: I do not like them because they integrate to much with Archicad - during the tests of their plugs I noted something that was wired - I changed the master layout content - gone back to layout - and I had both "contents" - the old and the new one - such behaviour was "off" when I removed Cadimage plugs from addons - and was back when I put them again. I am not sure which plug made this - but probably the Keynote or Revision manager (as those 2 are playing with layouts) - I removed 2 of them right a way - even they are usefull.
Moreover - the Cadimage plugs are difficult to install on other languages due to the sophisticated way of using some folders inside AC, some plugs do not work eg inside Polish AC - Landscaping plug. On this field - the Cigraphs plugs are the example of ease o use - You put the plugs to addons and forget 😉
One thing more - it is virtually impossible to open pla made when having Cadimage plugs loaded - no matter if You have or not the plugs installed on "the target" computer - only workaround with opening pln with pla as library that works.

Best Regards,
Piotr

Re: Experience with Stairbuilder

Anonymous — Wed, 21 Oct 2009 05:55:24 GMT

And the Cadimage response?

Re: Experience with Stairbuilder

Anonymous — Wed, 04 Nov 2009 23:28:50 GMT

sdb wrote:
"i will upload a couple of screenshots shortly."
Any chance of that anytime soon?
Sure would like to hear Cadimage's or someones response.
Still undecided.
lec

Re: Experience with Stairbuilder

Dave Jochum — Fri, 04 Dec 2009 07:47:59 GMT

Just found this thread. I used both StairBuilder and ArchiStair with AC 10 and 11, but didn't upgrade either to AC 12. Now with 13 I need to make the move. I liked ArchiStair better at the time--mainly for ease of use reasons. Sorry I can't be anymore definitive than that as it's been nearly 2 years since I used them and the mind is foggy. This thread died out before it really got started. I'd like to hear more opinions if anyone has them. Did you take the plunge on either, lec?

Re: Experience with Stairbuilder

Anonymous — Tue, 08 Dec 2009 17:01:14 GMT

Hi Dave
No, I Really Really, don't want another "dongle" to manage.
I've been waiting for a comparison between the two by someone else or response from Cadimage which has not been posted yet.
I've just finished a test stair concept, suggested by Steve Jepson here:
http://archicad-talk.graphisoft.com/viewtopic.php?p=153283&highlight=stairs#153283

For the test I revisited a double winder stair I had simply "slabified" when frustrated with AC stair almost two years ago.
I'm slow, so can't judge by this, but it took me way too long (around 4hrs) on this first set of double residential winders that are to be carpeted making the stair parts, plywood pieces etc so that I have a close "how it's constructed" model. (Would like to get this down to an 1hr someday).
I’m trying to learn a working style that what I model can be cut almost anywhere and be true to structural. Steve’s concept struck a cord there for me.
I did not worry this first one, how long it took or parts joining in section, which some did.
Also complicating things, (and the reason I chose this stair) was that I had cut both inside corners of the double winder to 45 degrees. This was in part to make it easier to get furniture up and around two corners, of a narrow, 36" stair, but also helped to get 6” min tread width.
Of course this made making the parts more complicated.

One of the main time sinks was I couldn't get different roof framing parts to completely SEO when trying to use them as stringers. Some of the treads would cut the stringer but others would not.
I ended up using "roofs" as stringers and that work almost flawlessly, except:
I wish there was a way to get parts to SEO sideways (left/right) not just up or down.
(I could put a “block” there and SEOed the piece I wanted gone and put block on hidden layer.) Maybe next structural test stair.
Am I missing something about sideways SEOing if wanted?
If anybodies got some tips on this I would like to hear them.
lec
ps
Maybe GS could modify/adopt concepts from curtain wall tool to a structural stair tool?
Ralph?

Re: Experience with Stairbuilder

Dave Jochum — Wed, 09 Dec 2009 04:30:24 GMT

My requirements are a bit different. I'm most interested in 1) Flexibility in plan view (that is, the ability to show any conceivable stair design and show it professionally. Not only is Stair Maker extremely limited in its design abilities, the results look very amateurish in plan, requiring 2D work to clean up), 2) Ability to show detail in elevation (which would require great flexibility in rail design), and very distant 3) Accuracy in section view.

Would sure like to hear from experienced users of StairBuilder and ArchiStair!

Re: Experience with Stairbuilder

Brett Brown — Wed, 09 Dec 2009 06:47:39 GMT

Dave wrote:
I liked ArchiStair better at the time--mainly for ease of use reasons.

Nothing changed with Stairbuilder in useability, it has got worse in my opinion. The opposite can be said for Archistair2. It has got even better than Archistair1. Both have numerous video's on the new versions, and both have demo's. You can't beat hands on use, to build examples of what you need, before buying. There's also a discussion here on Archistair2 somewhere.

Re: Experience with Stairbuilder

Erich — Thu, 10 Dec 2009 01:23:32 GMT

As the perpetrator of this thread I wanted to add my 2 cents. I downloaded demos of both add-ons to play with them and see just what they can do.

I really want to like the Cadimage product. I like the idea of working in plan rather than dialogs. I like the idea of adding sections of stairs together or spliting them or bending them as need be to fit the situation. They don't use a dongle! They have a great sale going on right now. I really want to like the product. Unfortunately the brutal truth is that the display does not meet my firm's need in plan or elevation or 3D. We do high end residential work and demand a lot of detail that I did not feel I could achieve. This may be due to may lack of experience with the add-on but that did not seem to be the case.

I was surprised by the Archistair2 add-on. Looking at screen shots and video on the web the interface looked confusing and cartoonish. In reality it seemed fairly clear and functional. The flexibility seems quite good (I am using the demo so I don't have full access to some features such as custom balusters, railings, first steps, etc.). I am quite sad that it uses a dongle, but I felt that way with ArchiCAD when I first started using the program (I am over that now) so perhaps this will pass.

The end result of my testing is that neither add-on is perfect for my needs. However, both add-ons are much better than the tools built into out program of choice. I encountered a few bugs in both products but none that I did not feel I could not overcome. In the end I realize that it is very unlikely that I would find any stair tool that fit all of my needs. Stairs are so complex and have so much variation that really prevent this. However, I think that the Archistair2 add-on gets reasonably close. Now to get my boss to cough up some money...

Re: Experience with Stairbuilder

Anonymous — Fri, 11 Dec 2009 00:45:04 GMT

Thanks Erich for the time invested in what appears to be a honest balanced attempt at a reasonably detailed evaluation of both.

Could Cadimage please respond to:
"We do high end residential work and demand a lot of detail that I did not feel I could achieve. This may be due to may lack of experience with the add-on but that did not seem to be the case"?

And especially a response to:
"I am using the demo so I don't have full access to some features such as custom balusters, railings, first steps, etc."
This is very important. Cigraph or full version user, could you please respond?
(edited to correct my mistake).
lec

Re: Experience with Stairbuilder

Erich — Fri, 11 Dec 2009 05:31:10 GMT

Lec,

My observations with respect to detail had to do with the level of detail of the volute included with Stairbuilder, the lack of trims (coves, nosings, etc.), no apron trim, limited selection of railing styles, etc. To be fair, Archistair lacks some of these details as well. I suspect that in order to model to the level i would like I will be building may stairs piece by piece of doing a bunch of line work to get the interiors to look right. I hope to find a tool that will take care of the more basic conditions with greater ease. I think that both of these tools would accomplish that but that Cigraph does so better for my needs.

The comment about the demo not including full features, was directed towards the Cigraph product not Cadimage. It was not a complaint, as this is how Cigraph chooses to provide the demo and they are quite clear about this, but more just noting that I could not test these features. Users of the licensed version would have full access to these features. From the demo you get a feeling for how this might work even though you cannot use the features.

I choose to post my observations in hopes that they might be of use to someone else. But both demos are easily obtained from Cadimage and Cigraph respectively. I would urge anyone looking for an alternative to the stair tool that ship with AC to try them out as my experience, expectations, and feelings my not match yours. Both products have a very short learning curve for the basics.

Cheers.

Re: Experience with Stairbuilder

Anonymous — Fri, 11 Dec 2009 06:27:24 GMT

Erich; you sure are right:
"The comment about the demo not including full features, was directed towards the Cigraph product not Cadimage."
OOOPPPSSS
I screwed that up. I'll now go back and correct comment to ask Cigraph or full version user that question.
I did not think you were being critical at all.
Your comment;
"I suspect that in order to model to the level i would like I will be building may stairs piece by piece..."
For now it seems, my point exactly.

As you know, stairs can get very complicated for such a small area of the building they occupy. And the code is getting tougher all the time.
Plus they can't squeak. So unless you want to "babysit" the builder, or look inept, you've got to have all the structural and trim stuff spelled out.
Not an easy task, especially for stairs of anything but straight.
lec
ps
At the risk of repeating myself.
What do you "gdl-gurus" think of retooling the curtain wall tool to be a structural stair tool?