topic Re: Revit 2010: epic fail? in Collaboration with other software

Revit 2010: epic fail?

Anonymous — Tue, 21 Apr 2009 05:13:50 GMT

Hi there ArchiCADers... news from the wild world of Revit!

Revit 2010 has just hit the streets, and implanted face first. So much for crowd surfing: this release was panned before it was released and now enjoys widespread scorn from the user community. Long time Revit users, ex-Autodesk employees, experts and implementers, and representatives from the Revit user community have all come to the conclusion that Revit 2010 sucks. There are a few that are supporting it on AUGI, so the hate isn't universal.

I'm a little stunned at the response, and not sure if it's warranted. Revit is in the middle of a UI facelift (evidently the developers are Ribbon haters -- it was forced on them by management), and its graphic engine is being replaced by one supporting DirectX 9. It's faster than 2009, but no one seems to care. It's that Revit Architecture got a few scant features in this release and an interface the majority didn't ask for.

Like you, we have a wishlist a mile long of items large and small. And most of those wishes remain unmet after half a dozen releases. It's customer relationship management 101: give the paying customer what they want. Talk to them before you force-feed them a new interface. And frankly, Autodesk has missed doing that so badly that some users are openly talking about bailing on Revit and trying something else.

Arrogance, incompetence, or did they just not see this coming? The user community would say either of the first two, and it's not pretty. I think it's a combination of management making a bad call and then not anticipating that the user community would blow their stack. But our users have been waiting for ages for some long-standing wishes to be fulfilled, and release after release, they don't show up. Patience evaporates, and now it's gone.

It's good news for you folks, because every time Autodesk screws up this badly, the sun shines a lighter brighter on you all.

Side note: Aaron Bourgoin, a local VW user and myself will be making a presentation to the Architectural Institute of British Columbia on how you can do BIM with AC, VW and Revit. Perhaps the field is leveling a bit?

AUGI appears to be down right now, but I'll post some links later showing how rabid our members are. We're a scary lot, I tell you!

Re: Revit 2010: epic fail?

Thomas Holm — Tue, 21 Apr 2009 05:26:25 GMT

metanoia wrote:
...our users have been waiting for ages for some long-standing wishes to be fulfilled, and release after release, they don't show up...

Metanoia, thanks for the heads-up! But what are those issues?

Re: Revit 2010: epic fail?

Eduardo Rolon — Tue, 21 Apr 2009 13:30:03 GMT

When you need a Hammer getting a redesigned Screwdriver will not do.

I posted these links in another thread

http://archicad-talk.graphisoft.com/viewtopic.php?p=144242&highlight=revit#144242

ejrolon wrote:
a reaction to the ribbon from an existing user

http://architechure.blogspot.com/2009/03/well-intentioned-road-paving.html

and an opinion (that includes the link to the one above)

http://autodesk-revit.blogspot.com/2009/03/revit-2010-ui-step-forward-or-step-back.html

Thanks for the info.

Re: Revit 2010: epic fail?

Laszlo Nagy — Tue, 21 Apr 2009 14:06:02 GMT

This topic of the Revit forums pretty well summarizes users' first impressions and generally they are not very positive:
http://forums.augi.com/showthread.php?t=99307&highlight=revit+2010
Another thread is a poll for small, medium and large firms and asks if they are "satisfied", "dissatisfied" or "dissatisfied and may cancel subscription". So far, satisfied to dissatisfied ratio is 10 to 25:
http://forums.augi.com/showthread.php?t=99789&highlight=revit+2010

Re: Revit 2010: epic fail?

Eduardo Rolon — Tue, 21 Apr 2009 14:07:11 GMT

another link

http://architechure.blogspot.com/2009/04/humpty-dumpty-sat-on-a-wall.html

Re: Revit 2010: epic fail?

Thomas Holm — Tue, 21 Apr 2009 14:15:50 GMT

Hey -take it easy - I'm not here to gloat or to flame another program. I know Revit has its strengths, as Archicad has, and I'm interested in Wes's mature opinions. I once wanted him banned, but I've learned I was wrong. Now I regard him as a serious professional, like many of us here. While I think Archicad works best for my needs, I'm a realist, and a professional, and I've switched before - I used mainly Microstation btw 1989 and 1998. (I admit I'd hesitate for a very long time before I'd cave in to Autodesk, though. Not because of their applications' quality, but because of their hilarious monopolist policies against their users, such as no upgrade for three years and you're orphaned)

Re: Revit 2010: epic fail?

Eduardo Rolon — Tue, 21 Apr 2009 14:35:19 GMT

To be fair,

here's a link to tutorials for Revit, they are quite good.

http://designreform.net/category/tutorials/revit-tutorials/

Re: Revit 2010: epic fail?

Anonymous — Tue, 21 Apr 2009 14:59:21 GMT

Laszlo -- those are the threads I was trying to link yesterday.

So what do Revit users want?

: site tools for creating roads, sidewalks and the like in Revit's terrain
: better text formatting tools -- they're quite rudimentary at present
: all the tools for *modeling* structural and HVAC so they can be built into the arch'l model
: customizable elevation tags
: sloped walls as an instance parameter of any given wall

And I could go on and on... but if Autodesk were to give us one or two of those in this release, the masses would be appeased

Re: Revit 2010: epic fail?

Laszlo Nagy — Tue, 21 Apr 2009 15:09:00 GMT

Wes, so I beat you to it.

I think this is an issue that is a useful lesson for GS too: what kind of mistakes not to make.

Re: Revit 2010: epic fail?

TomWaltz — Tue, 21 Apr 2009 20:36:38 GMT

Revit 2010 kind of reminds me of Archicad 12. It has a couple new features that the manufacturer RAVES about, and the users kind of said "OK, that's nice. Where's the rest of the new features?"

Re: Revit 2010: epic fail?

owen — Wed, 22 Apr 2009 08:36:47 GMT

TomWaltz wrote:
Revit 2010 kind of reminds me of Archicad 12. It has a couple new features that the manufacturer RAVES about, and the users kind of said "OK, that's nice. Where's the rest of the new features?"

AC12 had multi-processor support which IMO was alone worth the upgrade. Although AC is still not 100% MP capable it has made a big improvement in performance. Revit is still not multi-processor capable - something i would think is a really big deal given AC is and 4+ cores are now almost a standard workstation config.

So what is the one 'big' feature in Revit 2010 aside from the new UI?. I would say the massing tool looks like it, but i have not had the chance to play around with Revit 2010 yet so i really can't judge. It looks like it would be incredibly useful if you do that kind of work, but i guess useless otherwise?

Re: Revit 2010: epic fail?

Bricklyne Clarence — Wed, 22 Apr 2009 11:19:15 GMT

owen wrote:
.......

AC12 had multi-processor support which IMO was alone worth the upgrade. ......... Revit is still not multi-processor capable - something i would think is a really big deal given AC is and 4+ cores are now almost a standard workstation config...........

On the flip side, AC is not a 64-bit application, whereas I think Revit 2010 gives you the option of installing as a 32-bit or a 64-bit app.

This obviously means that AC tops out at 4GB of RAM ( if that) regardless of whether or not you have more, and IMO this is more crucial in AC than in Revit given how AC handles information and the model in general. ( think high polycount limits and crashes, which in turn limits the programs capacity to handle any level of complex model or modeling including those generated by the existing tools like the Curtain Wall and Complex Profiles.)

It also probably and partly explains why Revit is able to support more robust free-form modeling tools or at least massing tools, and complex relationships and constraints despite the seriously sucky 3D Engine (prior to v.2010's DirectX capable one).

I imagine its probably expensive to develop a 64bit app and/or dual-maintain it with the 32bit version, which is probably why GS have yet to do it ( and maybe the drivers issues), but given the fact tha Micrsoft are on record as stating that they will soon stop support and development for 32 bit versions of Windows in about 2-3 years time, it seems like a kinda critical thing for GS to address.

Maybe AC13 will be native 64bit capable, and make all this moot, but I did find it odd that they went multi-core before they developed a 64-bit native version.

Re: Revit 2010: epic fail?

Anonymous — Wed, 22 Apr 2009 11:39:54 GMT

I imagine its probably expensive to develop a 64bit app and/or dual-maintain it with the 32bit version,

No , its not. Generally you can design using definitions that take care of it and compile accordingly.

The hard thing is (and its really hard) to migrate from a pure 32bit code to a flexible one. Once you do it, then compiling for 32 64 or 128 bits its easy.

Re: Revit 2010: epic fail?

Anonymous — Wed, 22 Apr 2009 14:32:30 GMT

Revit, I think, has greater resource needs than AC. That's why we need the ridiculous amounts of RAM that we have -- so perhaps you're not hitting the 4Gb wall like so many Reviteers have? In any event: 2010 uses more RAM than any previous release, though 2009 often crashed on exit because of a suspected memory leak (we're not sure really).

Other than the massing and UI tools, there a number of useful improvements and a couple of extra features and a spot slope tool.

Revit uses multi processors for a number of tasks, and for rendering will use up to four cores, so Revit like AC is making use of MP where it can, and I'd expect both companies to continue investigations into how MP can be implemented.

Revit 2009's OpenGL graphics were slow -- no doubt about it. 2010 with DirectX is a lot better, but not a lot better than v2008; I don't understand what happened from 2008 to 2009... I will tell you that while views in Revit open in a fraction of the time AC12 does, once you get into that view, AC's display performance is as good (and I think faster) than Revit 2010.

As with any release we'll get service packs during the year and I fully expect 2010's display performance to improve.

The Ribbon is a another matter. There are those that like it (including people who don't have anything nice to say about Adesk -- ever), and those that absolutely hate it (especially in the context of other wish items being unmet). I think it was a bad idea -- but other than the Ribbon concept a lot of the other things Adesk has done with the UI have been good. However, all the other dialogs beyond that need serious help and not a lot was done to them in this release. Perhaps the new UI sets the stage for this to happen.

I am more productive in 2010 simply because of display performance; navigating the model is just that much faster. The Ribbon actually makes me slightly less productive but I'm a keyboarder and use any UI as little as I have to.

Re: Revit 2010: epic fail?

Anonymous — Thu, 23 Apr 2009 11:15:53 GMT

The Ribbon is a another matter. There are those that like it (including people who don't have anything nice to say about Adesk -- ever), and those that absolutely hate it (especially in the context of other wish items being unmet). I think it was a bad idea -- but other than the Ribbon concept a lot of the other things Adesk has done with the UI have been good. However, all the other dialogs beyond that need serious help and not a lot was done to them in this release. Perhaps the new UI sets the stage for this to happen.

Thats true. I am on on the ones who really like it.

Re: Revit 2010: epic fail?

Anonymous — Wed, 24 Jun 2009 03:19:19 GMT

Do Revit users have more money than ArchiCAD users? http://www.andekan.com/revit-families-content-pack

that almost seems a laughable amount to ask for some piping & toilet fixtures? From experience ArchiCAD users wouldn't even want to pay $399 (which i agree with).

Re: Revit 2010: epic fail?

owen — Wed, 24 Jun 2009 09:42:16 GMT

sdb wrote:
Do Revit users have more money than ArchiCAD users? http://www.andekan.com/revit-families-content-pack

that almost seems a laughable amount to ask for some piping & toilet fixtures? From experience ArchiCAD users wouldn't even want to pay $399 (which i agree with).

and we would definately not want to pay $3,999 .... that would get you a whole new seat of AC. Those objects would want to do you plumbing plans for you at that price.

W T F have those guys been smoking??

[EDIT:] OK bit slow this morning, been up all night ... i get it, you left one of the '9's out on purpose.

Re: Revit 2010: epic fail?

Anonymous — Wed, 24 Jun 2009 10:16:37 GMT

haha thanks owen.

yes i was really taken back by it. Surely they can't expect to sell ANY at that price. That's basically the same price as buying Revit or AC. ludicrous!

Re: Revit 2010: epic fail?

Rob — Thu, 25 Jun 2009 11:59:00 GMT

W T F have those guys been smoking??

looking at the price they surely must be surfing on a quality australian hydro pot.

Re: Revit 2010: epic fail?

Laszlo Nagy — Thu, 25 Jun 2009 12:12:19 GMT

Rob wrote:
W T F have those guys been smoking??
looking at the price they surely must be surfing on a quality australian hydro pot.

Respectfully, guys, drugs are not a fun thing at all. Millions of lives are ruined by them every year and this is no exaggeration.
So please skip such comments in the future.