topic Re: Thinking Revit vs ArchiCAD? Stick this thread! in Collaboration with other software

Thinking Revit vs ArchiCAD? Stick this thread!

Anonymous — Fri, 08 May 2009 18:35:08 GMT

Some of you are aware of the noise coming from the Revit user community regarding the new release and how many users are frustrated that long-standing wishes were not met, and instead we got a half-baked UI that might work out in the end, but was not asked for.

A widely respected Revit user and implementor (see http://architechure.blogspot.com) who worked for Revit pre and post Autodesk buyout has blogged clearly and humourously about the shortcomings of the new release.

And now he's being pushed out by Autodesk -- he's being told that he can't speak at Autodesk University, the annual educational conference held in Las Vegas. His sessions are a gold mine to Revit users, and he's become a mentor to many of us in our quest to master the software.

But he didn't toe the company line, so he's gone.

Do you folks want to use software from a company that behaves more like a cult than a software vendor?

Long live ArchiCAD.

Re: Thinking Revit vs ArchiCAD? Stick this thread!

Eduardo Rolon — Fri, 08 May 2009 18:44:42 GMT

Easy Wes, or you will get banned too.

When I had to buy software for my practice I rejected Autodesk for the company not the product and the issue that opened my eyes happened in 2001.

Re: Thinking Revit vs ArchiCAD? Stick this thread!

Anonymous — Fri, 08 May 2009 18:54:13 GMT

I was banned a long time ago

Our leadership over at AUGI is getting pretty frustrated with Autodesk corporate policy...

Re: Thinking Revit vs ArchiCAD? Stick this thread!

Anonymous — Fri, 08 May 2009 22:14:57 GMT

ejrolon wrore:
When I had to buy software for my practice I rejected Autodesk for the company not the product and the issue that opened my eyes happened in 2001.

Just curious, could you elaborate more?... Im thinking of buying revit

Re: Thinking Revit vs ArchiCAD? Stick this thread!

Anonymous — Fri, 08 May 2009 22:40:54 GMT

It might be Autodesk's policy of "retiring" software after three years -- if you don't pay for upgrading then, you'll pay full price for the software after that.

With AutoCAD they had to do that because new releases just weren't compelling enough for people to pay up. Revit has generally not had that problem -- upgrades have always been no-brainers.

Re: Thinking Revit vs ArchiCAD? Stick this thread!

Eduardo Rolon — Fri, 08 May 2009 23:17:33 GMT

It was a combination of the unnecessary yearly upgrades, being burned by a software lock right before a deadline and the sales reps from Autodesk.

I remember being at a CAD University at San Rafael and being in a meeting where all the dealers were asking Autodesk to make the installing procedure more difficult so they could charge their clients money for installing the software.

Also at the time that I was planning what software to use Revit hadn't been bought by Autodesk and AC was more feature complete.

Re: Thinking Revit vs ArchiCAD? Stick this thread!

Anonymous — Sun, 10 May 2009 12:47:22 GMT

It could be funny if it wasn't sad! It makes me wonder why people still continue to buy Autodesc's products?!?

Let me share my experience with them:
I don't use Autocad in my work for several years. I have it in my signature because I have used it since R14 and I know it in detail.
Last year I was invited to work in cooperation with a foreign firm who used Autocad R2006. I knew from previous experience that sometimes Autocad messed up files from different releases, especially fonts, so, I definitely wanted R2006. But Autodesk resellers told me the oldest version they could offer me was R2007! I asked if I could use a R2006 with a R2007 serial number and the answer was negative. This can be done with Windows - if you have the latest version you could use whatever old version you like legally! You have payed them and thats what matters to them! Autodesk resellers suggested that the other company should upgrade!

Re: Thinking Revit vs ArchiCAD? Stick this thread!

Anonymous — Sun, 10 May 2009 23:12:10 GMT

i've just been having a play with the family/component builder. And you can see why Revit is gaining momentum (becoming more of a standard). Library generation is just easier. Our GDL is more powerful, however harder to use. Autodesk has dumbed it down for the masses.

Re: Thinking Revit vs ArchiCAD? Stick this thread!

Anonymous — Mon, 11 May 2009 15:26:48 GMT

Without knowing terribly much about GDL's capabilities, I can tell you that Revit's family building capabilities range from the basic to psychotically advanced.

One architect had pretty much proven cosine law with all the mathematical formulae inside their curtain wall families...

Re: Thinking Revit vs ArchiCAD? Stick this thread!

Anonymous — Mon, 11 May 2009 21:16:35 GMT

Yes i'm the opposite (know a lot more about GDL).
from what i've seen of Revit 2010 they make it far easier for the 'normal' user to create 'families'. Which is a huge plus. Hence the reason why i think it's being adopted so fast recently.

Also when you log into Revit, the first window asks if you would like to start a new project or a new family/component. Where as in ArchiCAD you are not made as aware of the GDL scripting window.

Just little things, but IMO they are quite big when you are trying to make something an industry standard. Will be interesting to see what happens.

Re: Thinking Revit vs ArchiCAD? Stick this thread!

Brett Brown — Mon, 11 May 2009 21:39:20 GMT

We can make any door or window 100 times quicker in Door and Window builder than in a Family. Its a mission to slightly change any door or window in Revit Families compared to Door and Window builder. Why does the average punter need to know GDL when we can call on the many Guru's with free objects or pay a reasonable fee to "Objectstop" to get what we need. I would like the other omissions in the program fixed first than a simpler user GDL.

Re: Thinking Revit vs ArchiCAD? Stick this thread!

Anonymous — Mon, 11 May 2009 21:50:20 GMT

hi Brett
yes i agree, window & door builder is far superior to what is in Revit. I was more talking about which will become the standard, and the different ways the two softwares have gone about it. two different and interesting approaches. I'm still batting for ArchiCAD 😉

Re: Thinking Revit vs ArchiCAD? Stick this thread!

Anonymous — Mon, 11 May 2009 22:39:31 GMT

Door and Window Builder is impressive -- and would allow a user to build a good chunk of all the different kinds of doors you'd need on a project. A Revit user would have to build or download a door for every different door/window style, though not for every size, since that part is parametric. Based on what I saw in the brochure, that app is worth its price.

But we digress from the fact that Revit users are feeling slighted by this release 😉

Re: Thinking Revit vs ArchiCAD? Stick this thread!

Anonymous — Mon, 11 May 2009 22:46:07 GMT

metanoia wrote:
But we digress from the fact that Revit users are feeling slighted by this release 😉

yes i'm sure you are.

Re: Thinking Revit vs ArchiCAD? Stick this thread!

owen — Tue, 12 May 2009 13:48:48 GMT

Brett wrote:
We can make any door or window 100 times quicker in Door and Window builder than in a Family. Its a mission to slightly change any door or window in Revit Families compared to Door and Window builder. Why does the average punter need to know GDL when we can call on the many Guru's with free objects or pay a reasonable fee to "Objectstop" to get what we need. I would like the other omissions in the program fixed first than a simpler user GDL.

The other side to this argument is why should users who have already paid a quite substantial sum for ArchiCAD (particularly small offices who receive little-to-no discount on their seat price) have to then go and pay another US$400+ to get a set of basic functionality they could reasonably expect to form part of the core application (particularly DWB, Stairmaker, etc).

I have no problem with Cadimage making these tools - they are just filling a rather large gap in ArchiCAD's capabilities. My point is this gap should not be there in such basic tools.

An enhanced, easy-to-use GDL system (or this new AC 'systems' approach they have begun with the curtain wall tool) is extremely important IMO. One of the real problems with AC is the pathetic state of the libraries and the availability of 3rd party content. Look at the furniture available for christs sake .. its a joke. The reason is GDL creation is just too damn difficult for most people at the moment, and a big factor is it has NO GUI whatsoever in a product aimed at architects!?

Re: Thinking Revit vs ArchiCAD? Stick this thread!

Anonymous — Tue, 12 May 2009 21:10:48 GMT

Hi Owen
That's my point & IMO the reason Revit is taking a huge market hold. They provide a GUI to build objects & content. I like GDL (and use it all the time) however that's only because i like math & programming. Most Architect's are more visual thinkers, so to expect them to suddenly want (or even be remotely interested) to write some code is a big ask. So they have to get people like me (& many others) to build content for them. Which users don't really like to pay for & i agree they shouldn't really have to.

Re: Thinking Revit vs ArchiCAD? Stick this thread!

Anonymous — Wed, 13 May 2009 02:00:27 GMT

haha look at this reaction from someone who has just switched to AC from Revit archicad-talk.graphisoft.com/viewtopic.php?p=146569#146569

a bit over the top. but i guess a valid shock

Re: Thinking Revit vs ArchiCAD? Stick this thread!

owen — Wed, 13 May 2009 09:22:16 GMT

sdb wrote:
Most Architect's are more visual thinkers, so to expect them to suddenly want (or even be remotely interested) to write some code is a big ask. So they have to get people like me (& many others) to build content for them. Which users don't really like to pay for & i agree they shouldn't really have to.

no GUI is a big turn-off for most people - particularly architects. I like a bit of math and always found figuring out an efficient way to do things in GDL interesting, but sometimes people just want to make something relatively simple and make it quickly. GDL isn't exactly good for this.

Families sound like they are much easier to get into at the expense of being not as powerful as GDL - however i think this is really just a result of execution of the Families system and not an intrinsic problem of creating a GUI for object coding.

Anyway .. it seems GS has no intention of improving GDL but is moving towards system-based tools such as the Curtain Wall. On reflection I'm beginning to agree with the arguments people have made for this approach, but i still think they need to be customizable via GDL .. and in a user-friendly way. A simple example would be the Complex Profile manager .. how hard would it have been to write the Profile Manager to save those Fill-based drawings of profiles as tiny GDL scripts which could then be called upon by other scripts - rather than 'dumb' project attributes? I think that would have been very, very useful - being able to call parametric profiles into walls, beams, curtain wall elements etc. That would be a graphical GDL editor at its most basic level.

As for people not having to pay for ANY 3rd party content i don't think that is realistic (nor desirable from both our perspectives i am sure ) - GS cannot account for everyones needs but basic stuff like a working D&W builder, stairs etc should be part of the AC core. A decent object library should also be part of AC - perhaps GS could license the best 3rd party content available for inclusion with each new release. This would actually be a pretty good incentive for content creators to come up with good objects if they knew there was a chance GS would license them for worldwide distribution.

Re: Thinking Revit vs ArchiCAD? Stick this thread!

owen — Wed, 13 May 2009 09:25:55 GMT

sdb wrote:
haha look at this reaction from someone who has just switched to AC from Revit archicad-talk.graphisoft.com/viewtopic.php?p=146569#146569

a bit over the top. but i guess a valid shock

Quite

Re: Thinking Revit vs ArchiCAD? Stick this thread!

Anonymous — Wed, 13 May 2009 18:02:50 GMT

owen wrote:
Families sound like they are much easier to get into at the expense of being not as powerful as GDL - however i think this is really just a result of execution of the Families system and not an intrinsic problem of creating a GUI for object coding.

W.r.t. ease of use, Family making in Revit falls in between a tool like Window/Door builder and GDL. I suspect that Families have all the capabilities of GDL (which doesn't look that hard, BTW -- just tedious).

There is in fact so much capability in Families themselves that almost no one is mining all of it. And now there's an API too if that wasn't enough. Tell ya what: this whole computer business (they're EVERYWHERE and in everything) means if you can program well, you can have a career in any field you want