topic Re: Advantages of Key Notes?? in Collaboration with other software

Advantages of Key Notes??

Anonymous — Thu, 04 Dec 2008 04:00:32 GMT

Hi All,
I haven’t use key notes (Cad image tool) before, thinking of trying it out, but with AC12 version, we would need to buy it.

- What I would like to know the difference between the traditional way of placing the notes (by typing, copying and paste to all drawings) and key notes.
- Are there any advantages of key notes??
- How much times has saved through out the whole development design & documentation?? (if possible, what’s the percentage of times has saved)??
- is it worth while to buy the keynotes Cad image tool now?? or they might be free in the future??? hehehe.... ....I knwo they're free in AC11 version.

Please give me some comments.

Thanks in Advance

Star

Re: Advantages of Key Notes??

gpowless — Thu, 04 Dec 2008 04:30:58 GMT

I use Keynotes regularly, but I don't use any commercial add-ons or object tools. What I did was create a database of numbered comments and then query those that I need included in the drawings and create a print out with just those notes.

The benefit of Keynote is that a lot of detailed information can be included on the drawings without cluttering the documents, or having to resort to cryptic abbreviations. It is much easier to maintain consistency (and spelling) through the documents - especially where notes must be repeated view to view.

Re: Advantages of Key Notes??

Anonymous — Thu, 04 Dec 2008 04:35:59 GMT

I'm a big fan of keynotes. The consistency, accuracy and discipline they offer are a great improvement over trying to type the same thing over and over, and even if you copy paste notes what happens if a common note has to change. The cool thing about computers is that the keynotes can show a brief text on the drawing while referring to more detailed info in the notes list and even spec (depending how far one wants to go).

Re: Advantages of Key Notes??

Karl Ottenstein — Thu, 04 Dec 2008 05:23:27 GMT

I've seen the advantage of keynotes in commercial projects for the reasons given, particularly consistency.

For sustainably-sized residential projects (not the mega mansions), where the scale is larger and there is plenty of room for text, I prefer text notes. Text is easier on the design end to proof-read and on the client/engineer/build end to read - no putting your finger on the keynote, moving your eyes to the list, going back to the plan. My neck hurts thinking about it.

Error-checking keynotes (that the right code is in the right place) in a huge commercial doc set cannot be any fun...

Cheers,
Karl

Re: Advantages of Key Notes??

gpowless — Thu, 04 Dec 2008 13:04:37 GMT

Another point on Key Notes is that they act as a sort of checklist where you can ensure that all the areas of the design and construction are covered.

Karl, I use key notes on all my residential projects. There hasn't been a builder tell me or my clients that they didn't like them. The builder's main interest for the plans during construction are the dimensions. Most plans are pictorial enough to indicate columns, footings and other information like that.

When preparing their quotes and preparing material orders the details and specifics are needed. So the Key Notes come out in full detail and allow the estimator to document their needs. However, once the material arrives on site they don't need to know much more than where it all goes.

As I said, everyone it seems to be happy with the Key Notes. Plus, I can save about 4-5 hours per plan in not having to search for and place all the long form notes on the plan.

Less clutter means less time.

Re: Advantages of Key Notes??

Anonymous — Thu, 04 Dec 2008 16:57:24 GMT

Starchi wrote:
or they might be free in the future??? hehehe.... ....I knwo they're free in AC11 version.
Star

Free in AC11? Really? I wasn't aware of that.... where can i find them?

Re: Advantages of Key Notes??

Anonymous — Thu, 04 Dec 2008 19:52:32 GMT

LINZ wrote:
Starchi wrote:
or they might be free in the future??? hehehe.... ....I knwo they're free in AC11 version.
Star
Free in AC11? Really? I wasn't aware of that.... where can i find them?

I think Starchi means they were free to NZ customers who get Archicad thru' Cadimage (now Graphisoft NZ), but even then I think keynotes had to be purchased separately. The free ones (for us) are 3D Profiler, Accessories tool, Cabinet Builder, Stair Builder, Rapid Details tool, Site and Massing tool and the ever-popular Door and Window Builder.

Re: Advantages of Key Notes??

Link — Thu, 04 Dec 2008 23:26:46 GMT

gpowless wrote:
I use Keynotes regularly, but I don't use any commercial add-ons or object tools. What I did was create a database of numbered comments and then query those that I need included in the drawings and create a print out with just those notes.

Would you mind providing more information on what program you used for your database on how you queried them in ArchiCAD?

Cheers,
Link.

Re: Advantages of Key Notes??

Brett Brown — Fri, 05 Dec 2008 00:06:36 GMT

s2art wrote:
LINZ wrote:
Starchi wrote:
or they might be free in the future??? hehehe.... ....I knwo they're free in AC11 version.
Star

Free in AC11? Really? I wasn't aware of that.... where can i find them?

The free ones (for us) are 3D Profiler, Accessories tool, Cabinet Builder, Stair Builder, Rapid Details tool, Site and Massing tool and the ever-popular Door and Window Builder.

Well actually they aren't "free", we pay for them through the Upgrade fee which is twice what Americans pay.':wink:'

Re: Advantages of Key Notes??

Anonymous — Mon, 08 Dec 2008 21:59:51 GMT

Hi Everyone,
Thank you so much for your response and comments on Key notes.
Just one more question>>
Is there any guide on key notes (not on how to use commercial add-on key note tool, but on how to employ it to documentation drawing).

Very much thanks for your help once again.

Star

Re: Advantages of Key Notes??

gpowless — Tue, 09 Dec 2008 01:08:20 GMT

Link wrote:
Would you mind providing more information on what program you used for your database on how you queried them in ArchiCAD?

Cheers,
Link.

I don't query it in Archicad...although I suppose it someone wanted to do SQL queries to the external database it would be possible.

The data was created in MS Access and the query is done manually by marking the Keynote I want (as they are placed on the drawing) and then a final query and report for outputting the keynotes.

This is a simple form but for the custom homes I do it is more than adequate. The whole process takes about 15 minutes and I can add additional notes as I need them on the fly.

Occam's razor applies here IMO: "All other things being equal, the simplest solution is the best."

Re: Advantages of Key Notes??

KeesW — Sat, 13 Dec 2008 13:18:30 GMT

We've been using CadImage Keynotes for about 2 years and find them very good. There is a lot of initial work in creating standard notes but updating and adding to them is quite easy. The notes are accessed through ArchiCad's label tool. The best feature is that only the notes used on the layout appear on the same layout. This is very tedious to do manually because one usually doesn't know which views appear on which layout until the end of the job when the drawings are assembled.

I've seen manual keynotes where each layout has ALL the notes used on the project on each sheet. Because of space limitations, this restricts the number of notes that can be used on a project. It also tells the builder that you are too lazy to edit the notes and reinforces the view that key notes, like specifications, have a lot of redundant, irrelevant information.

It is also easy to create a link between building elements and key notes. For example, composite walls can be tagged so that the reference and key note is generated automatically whenever they are used on a project. This can really save time and increase productivity.

Rapid tool

Anonymous — Mon, 02 Feb 2009 11:48:45 GMT

How about Rapid tools? some little info for it guys.... some plastic modeling thing....

_________________
Rapid Tooling

Re: Advantages of Key Notes??

Da3dalus — Wed, 04 Feb 2009 01:17:28 GMT

I've been clamoring for keynotes for years. My firm principals swear by them, as they had a nifty little system in AutoCAD 11-13. The CADImage Keynotes add-on is very nice, but still too many steps, and dependent on Excel macros. I would really like something built-in. As I understand, ADT and Revit have it, as does Vectorworks. We use Arch-T (now AcceliArch from AutoDSys) for AutoCAD that works nicely; the database is kept in a text-only file, an parsed directly without exporting.

Here's how our iteration works:
These are 5-digit notes (000.00) in an oval with a leader. The first three numbers are the CSI section (Gypsum Board 09250 would be 092.xx), and the last two are the note number. So, each section can have 99 notes. This creates a nice organization (16- or 40-division, as you wish), and identifies to the contractor which trades are affected on each sheet. The list is to the left near the title block, so any sub can flip sheets, and if there's no 03x.xx note, there's no concrete. It also gives them a hint to go check that spec section for more info (though we typically add "...per Section 03300" to the note). Plus, you can look at a note on the plan, and immediately know generally what category of element it's pointing to (if you know your Masterformat). Of course, it does clean up the drawing as well. The keynotes are extracted from a central project database by sheet, preferably with as much automated intelligence as possible. I've never seen a perfect solution, though.

A company called Undecillion created the AutoKeyNotes (see Objects Online) for us, but it doesn't work well since AC9. It did quite a bit, such as creating various legends for different symbols. It utilized the ArchiCAD internal component database, which was great. Unfortunately, GS hasn't developed that very much, and it's hard to program.

Labels work pretty well, now. So does scheduling. I would be happy if you could just schedule labels! If anyone at GS would like more detail, I could create a program flow for how it could work.

Re: Advantages of Key Notes??

Brett Brown — Wed, 04 Feb 2009 02:56:41 GMT

Da3dalus wrote:
but still too many steps

Could you elaborate which too many steps you are talking about?

Re: Advantages of Key Notes??

Laszlo Nagy — Wed, 04 Feb 2009 15:16:37 GMT

Da3dalus wrote:
Here's how our iteration works:
These are 5-digit notes (000.00) in an oval with a leader. The first three numbers are the CSI section (Gypsum Board 09250 would be 092.xx), and the last two are the note number. So, each section can have 99 notes. This creates a nice organization (16- or 40-division, as you wish), and identifies to the contractor which trades are affected on each sheet. The list is to the left near the title block, so any sub can flip sheets, and if there's no 03x.xx note, there's no concrete. It also gives them a hint to go check that spec section for more info (though we typically add "...per Section 03300" to the note). Plus, you can look at a note on the plan, and immediately know generally what category of element it's pointing to (if you know your Masterformat). Of course, it does clean up the drawing as well. The keynotes are extracted from a central project database by sheet, preferably with as much automated intelligence as possible. I've never seen a perfect solution, though.

Could you upload a PDF of a Drawing or part of the Drawing so others could see how exactly this looks like?
You know, a picture is worth...

Re: Advantages of Key Notes??

Da3dalus — Wed, 04 Feb 2009 16:53:17 GMT

Here is a file with keynotes. As you can see, there's work for divisions 1, 3, 4, 6, 8, 10, 13, 15, and 16 noted here. This example shows our older system 00.000 rather than 000.00, but it works exactly the same way. Keynote 10.502 is the second note for section 10520 Fire Protection Specialties. A you can see, it's still a very crowded little plan, even with the keynotes.

FYI, I was just informed that this one was done in AutoCAD with a different system than Arch-T, though the results are identical. AutoCAD 2008 has the ability internally to access an Excel spreadsheet directly and cross-reference a list created by a selection set of blocks. On of my guys worked this out. The table that this thing creates automatically updates when something changes, though you have to make some adjustments manually when new keynotes are added. It's not as simple as the Arch-T add-on, but it takes care of the hassle of managing add-ons in general.

I'll get back on and discuss the CadImage Keynotes a little later after I've had my coffee.

Re: Advantages of Key Notes??

Da3dalus — Wed, 04 Feb 2009 16:54:35 GMT

And here's the plan that it references (these upload limits are brutal).

Re: Advantages of Key Notes??

Laszlo Nagy — Fri, 06 Feb 2009 09:36:50 GMT

It is interesting to see how widely used Keynotes are in english speaking countries.
In Hungary, I never had a job where we used Keynotes. We just always put the Label with full text there.
However, I see the advantage of it because on of our latest job was a restaurant for a fast food chain and the floor plan files were so flooded with labels and notes that it became hardly readable.
In such a case the Keynotes approach makes the plan much more readable.

Re: Advantages of Key Notes??

gpowless — Fri, 06 Feb 2009 12:03:07 GMT

With liability lawsuits on the rise, it makes sense to include as much information on the drawings as possible. Abbreviations used to be acceptable but we have seen lots of mistakes made by people who misunderstood a note. Adding notes to drawings in long form makes the drawings difficult to read and will often obscure critical dimensions.

So my choice is to go to keynotes to handle the common building information. I can keep detailed descriptions in long form in the key notes while also maintaining precise dimensional and pictorial clarity.