topic Re: Apple Lion OSX - New interface guidlines. in Collaboration with other software

Apple Lion OSX - New interface guidlines.

archislave — Thu, 02 Dec 2010 20:52:10 GMT

After five years of complaining about the old style 1980's Archicad Mac interface it seems Graphisoft will finally be required to update the interface to Modern OSX standards. They will have to offer a full screen mode with locking toolbars etc. This is my guess. I hope they will do some innovative stuff.

They should look at the new Autocad Mac GUI. Can't believe I said that ...

Re: Apple Lion OSX - New interface guidlines.

Anonymous — Fri, 03 Dec 2010 03:40:42 GMT

There are many wishes posted about an overhaul of the GUI in AC. While I think it would be good there are so many areas in deep s**t that I think it would be misguided to put limited GS resources to that task.
Also GS rely on compiling base software for each software - from what I gather such an approach lives little scope for platform specific features...

Re: Apple Lion OSX - New interface guidlines.

archislave — Fri, 03 Dec 2010 04:00:52 GMT

The difference this time is that Apple with create a label like "OSX Lion Ready" or something like that. Just like having the Intel build of Archicad ready for the switch back in 2006 this will be a similar effort I think.

I guess they can always run the risk of not updating it with the new required full screen mode, continuous save etc but it will not be blessed as an official Lion app. This new Lion is going to be a huge advance of OSX to a more modern way inheriting many cool and clean iOS attributes.

Re: Apple Lion OSX - New interface guidlines.

Karl Ottenstein — Fri, 03 Dec 2010 04:18:49 GMT

archislave wrote:
This new Lion is going to be a huge advance of OSX to a more modern way inheriting many cool and clean iOS attributes.

And finally (!) inheriting the Microsoft Windows functionality of being able to stretch the size of a window by any of the corners, not just the lower right. Such a "duh" thing, you wonder if MS had a patent on it or something that Apple was so stubborn to cripple such a simple thing for so many years...

Re: Apple Lion OSX - New interface guidlines.

Ben Cohen — Fri, 03 Dec 2010 05:54:44 GMT

Karl wrote:
And finally (!) inheriting the Microsoft Windows functionality of being able to stretch the size of a window by any of the corners, not just the lower right. Such a "duh" thing, you wonder if MS had a patent on it or something that Apple was so stubborn to cripple such a simple thing for so many years...

I didn't realize this Karl. This is the single most annoying part of the Mac OS. Thanks for the info

Re: Apple Lion OSX - New interface guidlines.

archislave — Fri, 03 Dec 2010 17:32:38 GMT

Apple has been encouraging it for years and provides this in it's own apps. It is going one step further in a way for Lion in that the full screen views are totally full screen focused experienced.

Let's see! OSX has been out for 10 years but none of the programmers especially of OS9 (and before) apps like Archicad have not take the time to really change anything except making sure it will run on the hardware.

In fact, Archicad is the most problematic app that I have on the Mac. I like windows Archicad much better. It is their laziness that has prevented the updating though.

I think most of the mentality is just left over from the 80's and 90's Mac experience. Now it appears apple if ready to enforce the new modes or they won't get listed in the Mac App Store for Lion or get a 'made for Lion' logo.

HELLO GRAPHISOFT! HAVE YOU STARTED THIS YET? LION IS COMING IN MAY!

Re: Apple Lion OSX - New interface guidlines.

Ralph Wessel — Sat, 04 Dec 2010 22:46:00 GMT

archislave wrote:
Now it appears apple if ready to enforce the new modes or they won't get listed in the Mac App Store for Lion or get a 'made for Lion' logo.

The Mac App Store is only for certain types of applications. All the regular methods for obtaining applications, e.g. purchase from another online store, download, purchase from retail outlets, and through resellers (like ArchiCAD), will all remain and continue to work as before.

I expect that most - perhaps all - professional applications will continue to be sold as they currently are, without even attempting to work through the App Store. I don't think Lion has any particular ramifications for Graphisoft at all.

Re: Apple Lion OSX - New interface guidlines.

archislave — Sun, 05 Dec 2010 04:24:55 GMT

No, I doubt they will make an effort, but the Ideal of fullscreen apps and continuous save is a nice idea. It is sad that the Mac Archicad GUI is so inferior to even windows and they have never made an attempt to rid the clutter and scattered nature of the toolbars and palettes.

The only way to deal with it is to have saved environment schemes. I have a scheme for a 20" lcd and then one for the macbook alone. It takes several menus and clicks to reset it.

Re: Apple Lion OSX - New interface guidlines.

Anonymous — Sun, 05 Dec 2010 07:40:06 GMT

archislave wrote:
It is sad that the Mac Archicad GUI is so inferior to even windows and they have never made an attempt to rid the clutter and scattered nature of the toolbars and palettes.

While I agree that an interface overhaul could be great for both platforms if it's done right (unlike the abominable ribbon that all the Autodesk products have now), I don't agree that the current ArchiCAD Windows interface is superior to the Mac.

I use both and see pros and cons in each, but generally prefer the Mac since I regularly use palettes that don't dock in Windows which makes a bit of a mess of things. The Windows docking (as implemented in ArchiCAD) for the palettes that do dock is also rather frustrating. I find I can't get them organized quite the way I want and have to put up with annoying compromises that waste screen space.

NavisWorks does a much better job of allowing a finely tuned organization of the palettes and, as far as I have seen, all the palettes will dock. If ArchiCAD on Windows had the same palette docking as Navis I would concede a significant advantage there.

On the Mac side it would be a big improvement if the palettes were just rationalized to more standard widths so that they would be easier to arrange and align without having to tweak out the odd one to two pixel gaps. Even better would be if the Mac palettes could be merged into single assemblies rather than just snapped together as they are now.

One thing I do give GS credit for is that the behavior of the main windows relative to the palettes is better than in the other products I've use. I find it very annoying when I maximize a window in InDesign or Photoshop and it goes to the extents of the screen leaving all the palettes obscuring the edges. In ArchiCAD it finds the space available within the open palettes.

Re: Apple Lion OSX - New interface guidlines.

Ralph Wessel — Sun, 05 Dec 2010 13:06:30 GMT

Matthew wrote:
...an interface overhaul could be great for both platforms if it's done right (unlike the abominable ribbon that all the Autodesk products have now)

The ribbon concept is an abomination - one that I hope we never see in ArchiCAD. It's like Kid Pix without the fun. I can barely tolerate products like MS Office that have embraced it - the loss in productivity is frightening.

Re: Apple Lion OSX - New interface guidlines.

Achille Pavlidis — Mon, 06 Dec 2010 10:23:00 GMT

Karl wrote:
archislave wrote:
This new Lion is going to be a huge advance of OSX to a more modern way inheriting many cool and clean iOS attributes.
And finally (!) inheriting the Microsoft Windows functionality of being able to stretch the size of a window by any of the corners, not just the lower right. Such a "duh" thing, you wonder if MS had a patent on it or something that Apple was so stubborn to cripple such a simple thing for so many years...

and may I add, that there are some windows, that can't be resized at all!!!

see here: http://archicad-talk.graphisoft.com/viewtopic.php?t=32398

Re: Apple Lion OSX - New interface guidlines.

Anonymous — Mon, 06 Dec 2010 17:01:17 GMT

Achille wrote:
and may I add, that there are some windows, that can't be resized at all!!!

No shortage of those in Windows either. Revit has loads of fixed size, modal dialogs (this may be improved with 2011 - I don't recall).

Re: Apple Lion OSX - New interface guidlines.

Anonymous — Mon, 13 Dec 2010 10:27:04 GMT

Matthew wrote:
Achille wrote:
and may I add, that there are some windows, that can't be resized at all!!!
No shortage of those in Windows either. Revit has loads of fixed size, modal dialogs (this may be improved with 2011 - I don't recall).

It didn't been improved in Revit 2011.

Re: Apple Lion OSX - New interface guidlines.

Anonymous — Thu, 11 Aug 2011 11:43:31 GMT

Ralph wrote:
The ribbon concept is an abomination - one that I hope we never see in ArchiCAD. It's like Kid Pix without the fun. I can barely tolerate products like MS Office that have embraced it - the loss in productivity is frightening.

you echo the thousands of AutoCAD and Revit users from 3-4 years ago.
when the ribbon was first introduced as part of the Mac Office interface and then Windows Office (and then Vista/7 certified apps), not many people seemed to like it at first, but soon enough they got used to it. now it's impossible to find any user who would go back to the basic 80s style interface. it follows that most of the design aspects of OSX 10.7 will find their way into Windows8 in some fashion, and will invariably be an integral design element of any multi-platform software.

new users actually find it far easier to pick up than the old-school toolbars, there is no problem there at all. however, initially it is a productivity problem for existing users -- as with any new version of software it takes some time to adjust. the end result is net productivity gain, which has been repeatedly confirmed by multiple independent trials of the Microsoft Suite and Windows. the same was true for users switching from 2D to 3D design, CAD to BIM software. this is no minor tweak -- the visual aspect belies the complexity of the work, but the productivity benefits are equally far more than they appear at first glance.

a key drawback is you have to relearn where the icons are -- one problem is that Archicad's icons are so divorced from the graphic/CAD/BIM design industry standard that they would need a major overhaul of them, and redesigning them for the multiple sizes required by the ribbon is the ideal opportunity to do that.
the ribbon also typically has keyboard shortcuts assignable to all icons, something that is missing in Archicad (although you can assign many command to shortcuts this is not quite the same streamlined approach);
then there is the tear-off toolbars. even in Autodesk's 2012 suites it still lacks some cohesion -- you can save your workspace, but clicking in the wrong place will put all of your palettes back into the main ribbon again, which is not ideal -- similarly with Adobe CS5 (widely regarded as having some of the finest UI workflow of almost any software) your palettes jump back occasionally, but it's not much trouble to pull them out again;
one alternative is the ribbon's top quick-launch bar, where you can save dozens of your most used icons in the old-school small size -- this is a less than perfect arrangement, but most people when first switching to the ribbon-style interface, begin by hiding the ribbon and just using the quick-launch bar; that works some of the time, but given the dynamic design of the ribbon, some commands are contextual and only appear in certain ribbons at certain times, not allowing them to be added to the QLB;

some people criticized the dockable, fullscreen modes, however, they are entirely optional and the palettes and windows can be docked, locked or autohide at your command, so you don't need to use those if you don't wish to.

Graphisoft can continue to keep its' head in the sand, but usability is a key aspect for any new user -- and to convince new users and new corporate customers to migrate to Archicad rather than the competition will require a change of mindset -- these workflow gains are not only for existing users, but for architectural business competitiveness and long-term relevance of Archicad.

Re: Apple Lion OSX - New interface guidlines.

vfrontiers — Thu, 11 Aug 2011 18:05:17 GMT

@ Matt (from way down below)

I just spent a couple of days presenting to a firm on a MAC and an hands down the most frustrating thing was EVERY TIME I opened up a detail or worksheet it landed BEHIND my INFO PALETTE and TOOLBOX at the top of the screen. EVERY TIME I had to pull the palettes out of the way, drag the window (by the top rail) and move the palettes back.

This is where the mac falls behind..

To be fair, the Mac is so far ahead in so many other ways, I'll never give it up. But I do work in both worlds and find it funny that Macs overlook some simple things.

But, GS did fix the TOOLS Palette! It does now stay where I left it the last time...

Re: Apple Lion OSX - New interface guidlines.

Rob — Wed, 17 Aug 2011 12:13:56 GMT

a key drawback is you have to relearn where the icons are -- one problem is that Archicad's icons are so divorced from the graphic/CAD/BIM design industry standard that they would need a major overhaul of them, and redesigning them for the multiple sizes required by the ribbon is the ideal opportunity to do that

Although there is a lot to improve with AC UI I would say thanks God that AC icons are divorced from CAD/BIM design industry, actually what is the standard? Adesk products or Microstation? Allplan or Vectorworks? The fact is that the ribbon interface was crafted for completely different type of applications and purpose yet Adesk managed to hammer it in... it feels like square peg in a round hole. I should congratulate them for the effort however the result is still square peg in a round hole and it should be shown as a perfect example of mismatched purpose vs functionality.

I would welcome some tabbed docking solution for palettes (aka Photoshop) or Info Box that shows settings for all items you have clicked on (e.g.. Views, Layouts in Navigator etc) but certainly Windows UI should not be the leader here...

edited:
interestingly enough there is no trace of the ribbon UI in Autocad2012 for OSX... actually it looks like Photoshop... lesson learnt perhaps?