topic Re: Most compatible conflict checking program with ArchiCAD in Collaboration with other software

Most compatible conflict checking program with ArchiCAD

Anonymous — Tue, 22 Dec 2009 22:41:19 GMT

I've just started some research in searching for which "conflict-checking" program or add-on would be most compatible with ArchiCAD?

I've noticed that Solibri provides a conflict checking program for the IFC models in addition to its Solibri Model Viewer. I do not know much of this at the moment, but wanted to check in and see if anyone else has done any kind of "conflict-checking" with their ArchiCAD BIM model.

Thanks!

Re: Most compatible conflict checking program with ArchiCAD

Anonymous — Wed, 23 Dec 2009 03:16:01 GMT

NavisWorks files can only be exported from ArchiCAD 12 right now. AC13 will presumably be supported in NW2011 - so I expect we will have that around June or so. You can also use DWG and IFC files from ArchiCAD in Navis but DWG loses a lot of information compared to NWC and Navis' IFC import was quite poor last I checked.

Solibri works very well with ArchiCAD IFCs so it probably rates as the most compatible, especially since IFC export from AC13 seems to be significantly improved (I am just getting around to serious testing right now). The main drawback is that IFC export can be quite slow and the files quite large. On the plus side Solibri offer much that Navis does not.

Both of these programs represent a substantial commitment of time and money so you need to be sure that they will serve your needs.

Keep in mind also that it is better to do as much interference checking/clash detection as possible in ArchiCAD before sending it out. This is made more difficult due to ArchiCAD's very limited 3D import capabilities, but I still go to the trouble since it is so much easier than going back and forth between the different programs. I believe the MEP add on has clash detection capabilities but I haven't had time to check this out yet. I suspect it may only be useful with models from AutoCAD MEP which would be quite limiting if true.

Re: Most compatible conflict checking program with ArchiCAD

Laszlo Nagy — Wed, 23 Dec 2009 15:48:39 GMT

Matthew wrote:
I believe the MEP add on has clash detection capabilities but I haven't had time to check this out yet. I suspect it may only be useful with models from AutoCAD MEP which would be quite limiting if true.

Yes, the MEP Modeler has Clash Detection. It creates Mark-UP entries of the Clashes it has found so you can visually check where MEP stuff intersects itself or other structures.
The new Collaboration ITG Part 2 has a Section in it which demonstrates its use.

Re: Most compatible conflict checking program with ArchiCAD

Anonymous — Wed, 23 Dec 2009 19:23:02 GMT

Since this clash detection has been incorporated into MEP Modeler, does that by any chance pave way for future possibility of having that built-in in the next AC release? (AC14) Although, I can imagine it being complicated to program (how will it know the difference between intersecting walls or beams by design or error?) it may not make sense to come with ArchiCAD.

Would be a nice feature since some BIM project submittals have guidelines that include running conflict-checking programs or application through the BIM model.

Anyway, I will have to check out that Collaboration ITG Part 2. Thanks for your comments, Laszlo and Matthew.

Re: Most compatible conflict checking program with ArchiCAD

Anonymous — Thu, 24 Dec 2009 18:51:46 GMT

Detecting the clashes would be, I suspect, a rather trivial issue. All it has to do is search for overlapping elements. Since ArchiCAD can already automatically detect and resolve beam intersections with slabs it would seem that most of the code for this is already written. Remember that intersecting walls don't overlap. Their geometry is trimmed to fit by ArchiCAD.

A little more difficult would be constraining the clash detection. It is generally useless to just clash everything with everything. In Navis this typically generates thousands of meaningless results. For example, expansion anchors that are modeled with the MEP hangers but not subtracted from the structural decks will all show up as clashes. In ArchiCAD this could probably be done rather easily by leveraging the layers and selection tools and just running the clashes between specified layers on the current selection.

I think the biggest chore in developing this function would be making the UI. Specifying how the various users might want to interact with this function and then putting it together with well designed tools and dialogs is quite a job.

Of course, as I think I've said before, I have been making a large part of my income doing this sort of stuff over the last couple years and I find I rarely use the clash detection tools. Visual inspection is usually more effective and this works in ArchiCAD right now (obviously).

The biggest obstacle to meaningful clash detection in ArchiCAD is the inability to link the external geometry from Revit, CADmep, and so on. This seems to be improving with IFC import but DWG is tedious and error prone and can only be done as library parts (making automatic clash detection impossible).

Re: Most compatible conflict checking program with ArchiCAD

Anonymous — Sun, 27 Dec 2009 13:00:52 GMT

Also, ArchiCAD being a modeling software, it taxes the system much more than non modeling ones, like Solibri, VICO, or AtLantis.

I suspect it will always be faster to check this kind of stuff on a non modeling software, as it is always faster to render in a non modeling software.

Re: Most compatible conflict checking program with ArchiCAD

Anonymous — Sun, 27 Dec 2009 16:28:45 GMT

Krippahl wrote:
Also, ArchiCAD being a modeling software, it taxes the system much more than non modeling ones, like Solibri, VICO, or AtLantis.

I suspect it will always be faster to check this kind of stuff on a non modeling software, as it is always faster to render in a non modeling software.

I'm not so sure about this.

If you are speaking just of the automatic clash detection rules you are probably right, but because of procedural rather than a structural difference between the Model Builders and the Model Checkers. Since this is a core function of the Checkers it will be a priority for development whereas it would always be a secondary function in the Modelers. I see no reason in principle that efficient clash detect couldn't be built into ArchiCAD or Revit if the programming resources were dedicated to it. The parallel to rendering is quite apt.

On the other hand, I find using a dedicated program for clash detection can be quite tedious methodologically. Since any corrections have to be made in the modeling software going back and forth between the two can be quite onerous. This is why I often import the mechanical models (at least the ductwork) into ArchiCAD to eliminate most of the clashes before the model is exported to Navis or Solibri.

Re: Most compatible conflict checking program with ArchiCAD

Anonymous — Mon, 28 Dec 2009 12:40:03 GMT

I am not saying that clash detection can not be done inside a modeler, only that it will probably be faster on a checker/viewer, because there are less things going on (like renderings).

I agree that, for now, checking stuff manually is less error prone and produces less redundant information, but my guess is that this happens because checkers are on their infancy.

Your experience (like mine) stems from being a one man show, and then it is easy to verify as you model.

From a complex model team structure point of view, where you have someone doing architecture, another structure, another H VAC, and so on, having a team leader who verifies everything outside a modeler makes sense. This way you can keep each role independent, with much better quality control.

Re: Most compatible conflict checking program with ArchiCAD

Anonymous — Tue, 29 Dec 2009 07:41:52 GMT

Krippahl wrote:
From a complex model team structure point of view, where you have someone doing architecture, another structure, another H VAC, and so on, having a team leader who verifies everything outside a modeler makes sense. This way you can keep each role independent, with much better quality control.

I think we are pretty much on the same page with all of this. There are two distinct aspects to clash detection/coordination. One is trying to get the model right in the first place by linking other trades into the authoring programs. The other is checking all the results together independently in the checkers. This is the most thorough and effective approach and probably always will be.

Re: Most compatible conflict checking program with ArchiCAD

Anonymous — Wed, 30 Dec 2009 08:02:01 GMT

Matthew wrote:
Solibri works very well with ArchiCAD IFCs so it probably rates as the most compatible, especially since IFC export from AC13 seems to be significantly improved (I am just getting around to serious testing right now). The main drawback is that IFC export can be quite slow and the files quite large. On the plus side Solibri offer much that Navis does not.

Solibri provides also a direct link between ArchiCAD and Solibri Model Checker as an ArchiCAD plugin. The user can send model to Solibri without exporting an IFC file. It is faster than ArchiCAD IFC export and the user can also transfer selections between Solibri and ArchiCAD. AC11/12/13 for Windows and Mac is supported in the latest plugin release.

Re: Most compatible conflict checking program with ArchiCAD

Anonymous — Wed, 30 Dec 2009 18:23:03 GMT

Matti wrote:
Matthew wrote:
Solibri works very well with ArchiCAD IFCs so it probably rates as the most compatible, especially since IFC export from AC13 seems to be significantly improved (I am just getting around to serious testing right now). The main drawback is that IFC export can be quite slow and the files quite large. On the plus side Solibri offer much that Navis does not.
Solibri provides also a direct link between ArchiCAD and Solibri Model Checker as an ArchiCAD plugin. The user can send model to Solibri without exporting an IFC file. It is faster than ArchiCAD IFC export and the user can also transfer selections between Solibri and ArchiCAD. AC11/12/13 for Windows and Mac is supported in the latest plugin release.

How is it I was unaware of this? Thanks for the heads up. It was a bit of a trick to find the add-ons to download from your site, but I have them installed now and look forward to trying out the link. Now if only I had a copy of Tekla...

Re: Most compatible conflict checking program with ArchiCAD

Anonymous — Wed, 30 Dec 2009 18:59:21 GMT

Matti wrote:
Solibri provides also a direct link between ArchiCAD and Solibri Model Checker as an ArchiCAD plugin.

This is BRILLIANT! I just exported a sizable model (one floor of a large hospital) and it took about three minutes. This beats Revit to Navis all hollow. I'm going to have fun with this.

Re: Most compatible conflict checking program with ArchiCAD

Anonymous — Wed, 30 Dec 2009 19:04:16 GMT

Matti wrote:
Matthew wrote:
Solibri works very well with ArchiCAD IFCs so it probably rates as the most compatible, especially since IFC export from AC13 seems to be significantly improved (I am just getting around to serious testing right now). The main drawback is that IFC export can be quite slow and the files quite large. On the plus side Solibri offer much that Navis does not.
Solibri provides also a direct link between ArchiCAD and Solibri Model Checker as an ArchiCAD plugin. The user can send model to Solibri without exporting an IFC file. It is faster than ArchiCAD IFC export and the user can also transfer selections between Solibri and ArchiCAD. AC11/12/13 for Windows and Mac is supported in the latest plugin release.

I guess I'm blind, but I cannot find the plugins for download on the site. I found them in the Solibri 5.1 Folder, but they don't have the plugin for 13 there.

Re: Most compatible conflict checking program with ArchiCAD

Karl Ottenstein — Wed, 30 Dec 2009 19:23:06 GMT

I'm curious - is there no inexpensive conflict detection option out there? (One that just shows clashes, such as the MEP add-on does for MEP elements.)

I've never tried Solibri, wanting to save the 'free trial' for some time when I might actually need it. Searching the US resellers, none list a price - but the AECBytes review here:
http://www.aecbytes.com/review/2009/SolibriModelChecker.html

shows $6,000. Pretty big chunk of change if you just want the clash detection feature. Imagine Navisworks isn't particularly cheap either?

Also... I thought Revit had clash detection built in?

Thanks,
Karl

Re: Most compatible conflict checking program with ArchiCAD

Anonymous — Wed, 30 Dec 2009 19:43:37 GMT

Karl wrote:
I'm curious - is there no inexpensive conflict detection option out there? (One that just shows clashes, such as the MEP add-on does for MEP elements.)

There's no cheap solution for automatic clash detection as far as I know, but then I really think this is an overrated function. I have been doing coordination on very large projects for over two years now and have rarely used the clash detection. This is also true for my colleagues. Every so often we'll run a clash but mostly we just zoom into the tight spots and sort it out by eye.

I've never tried Solibri, wanting to save the 'free trial' for some time when I might actually need it. Searching the US resellers, none list a price - but the AECBytes review here:
http://www.aecbytes.com/review/2009/SolibriModelChecker.html

shows $6,000. Pretty big chunk of change if you just want the clash detection feature. Imagine Navisworks isn't particularly cheap either?

Navis pricing has changed since the Autodesk takeover. There are a wide range of prices depending on functionality. Like Solibri there is a free viewer. As I recall the full package with all the bells and whistles is about $15,000. These are considered very vertical market programs primarily targeted at projects over $100 million. This pretty much locks in five figure pricing.

Also... I thought Revit had clash detection built in?

Not that I've heard. I'll have to take a look.

Re: Most compatible conflict checking program with ArchiCAD

TomWaltz — Wed, 30 Dec 2009 20:03:48 GMT

Matthew wrote:
Also... I thought Revit had clash detection built in?
Not that I've heard. I'll have to take a look.

Yes, it does. Since 2008 or so, I think. It's nowhere near as nice as Navis' though.

I can see doing visual collision detection on something small like a house, but on anything of any size, it makes about as much sense as adding up numbers in a spreadsheet by hand. If you have a high end tool that can help locate problems, it seems irresponsible not to use it. It's one thing if it's out of your price range, but it's quite another if you have it and choose not to use it.

I've yet to see any kind of clash detection or BIM assembly software that is cheap. They tend to cost quite a bit, but have proven their value many, many, many times over here.

$15K is a lot. It's still cheaper than any lawsuit and even some change orders.

Re: Most compatible conflict checking program with ArchiCAD

Anonymous — Wed, 30 Dec 2009 20:29:23 GMT

TomWaltz wrote:
Matthew wrote:
Also... I thought Revit had clash detection built in?
Not that I've heard. I'll have to take a look.
Yes, it does. Since 2008 or so, I think. It's nowhere near as nice as Navis' though.

Cool, I'll have to check it out.

I can see doing visual collision detection on something small like a house, but on anything of any size, it makes about as much sense as adding up numbers in a spreadsheet by hand. If you have a high end tool that can help locate problems, it seems irresponsible not to use it. It's one thing if it's out of your price range, but it's quite another if you have it and choose not to use it.

Am I wrong to feel a bit insulted here? It seems you are calling me and my colleagues irresponsible. Have you actually done construction coordination on large projects? Of course we do use clash detection occasionally. It just doesn't turn out to be as useful as you might expect. Not that I would want to lose the function. It is handy sometimes.

I've yet to see any kind of clash detection or BIM assembly software that is cheap. They tend to cost quite a bit, but have proven their value many, many, many times over here.

$15K is a lot. It's still cheaper than any lawsuit and even some change orders.

Cheaper than most change orders on hospitals and large institutional projects. It almost seems that anything under that is hardly worth the bother. Heck, we can easily spend a few grand just figuring out how to fix a problem let alone doing the actual work.

Re: Most compatible conflict checking program with ArchiCAD

Karl Ottenstein — Wed, 30 Dec 2009 20:54:37 GMT

Thanks, Matthew and Tom. Interesting.

Re: Most compatible conflict checking program with ArchiCAD

Anonymous — Thu, 31 Dec 2009 08:10:45 GMT

Michael wrote:

I guess I'm blind, but I cannot find the plugins for download on the site. I found them in the Solibri 5.1 Folder, but they don't have the plugin for 13 there.

To download the latest release of the ArchiCAD 11/12/13 plugin, please login to the Solibri Customer Support Site. You can find the plugin package from the Extension section.

Karl wrote:

shows $6,000. Pretty big chunk of change if you just want the clash detection feature. Imagine Navisworks isn't particularly cheap either?

One bad clash can be easily a worth of $6,000. It is reality that in the clash check with HVAC models you can find plenty of them.

People often compare Navis and Solibri Model Checker because the both sofware have clash detection. Clash detection is important, but there is many other things to take care if you want to assure good quality of a BIM model.

Solibri Model Checker is rule based model checking software. The clash detection is just one of the Solibri Model Checker rules. Solibri Model Checker has plenty of pre-configured rules in form of rule sets. User can also create own rule sets by using the rule templates and own parameters. There is almost unlimited amount of different things that user can check from a BIM model.
Here is few examples:
- Check the conformity between Architectural and Structural models
- Find the differences between two revisions of the same model
- Check that properties of component like wall have acceptable values
- Check that each room has space for wheelchair

Re: Most compatible conflict checking program with ArchiCAD

TomWaltz — Thu, 31 Dec 2009 14:27:20 GMT

Matthew wrote:
I can see doing visual collision detection on something small like a house, but on anything of any size, it makes about as much sense as adding up numbers in a spreadsheet by hand. If you have a high end tool that can help locate problems, it seems irresponsible not to use it. It's one thing if it's out of your price range, but it's quite another if you have it and choose not to use it.
Am I wrong to feel a bit insulted here? It seems you are calling me and my colleagues irresponsible. Have you actually done construction coordination on large projects? Of course we do use clash detection occasionally. It just doesn't turn out to be as useful as you might expect. Not that I would want to lose the function. It is handy sometimes.

You guys have known me long enough. If you have to question whether I'm insulting you, I'm not. If I've insulted you, you'll KNOW it 😉

I have used clash detection on large and small projects and found it extremely useful. There are a couple caveats though.

The more that is modeled, the more useful it is. If the architects are doing full 3D and the engineers aren't, then the value drops significantly. Checking architecture against itself isn't really that exciting.

If the engineers are doing full 3D, we actually have to do collisions against specific sets of elements just to keep them manageable. We start getting every time a pipe goes through a non-rated non-bearing partition above a ceiling and no one cares about that.

Structure and HVAC are usually the two major ones, since they have the biggest elements that get in each others' way. Plumbing can be a big one too, since the larger sloping pipes can get in the way too.

Revit's collision detection is pretty basic. Navis is lot better about it, since it allows you to specifically tell it to, for example, structure against HVAC, and check for anything that comes within 1" of each other (allowing for hangers, insulation, etc). Navis then gives you a screenshot of each collision and the element IDs of each element related to it so you can find it in its original software.

I've always wanted to dig into Solibri but haven't had the opportunity yet.

Navis (or any similar software) is one of those things that fits into "BIM is a change in process, not just in software." Anyone treating BIM like a new-fangled CAD program probably won't want to fit model-based coordination into their workflow.

A few Navis checks early in the process can head off problems that normally wouldn't be found until CDs when it takes a lot more work to fix. I've seen the best results when the project team holds regular coordination meetings, say once a month, just to talk about conflicts in the model (usually the result of trading models the week before and someone ran the collected models through Navis). When you have all the engineers in the room to talk about a solution, it usually yields a much better result than a string of emails and letters and sketches back and forth.

I wouldn't say that Navis replaces professional judgment or that it should be the only way that professionals coordinate multi-displine projects. It is simply a tool that can significantly speed up the process and maybe catch a few problems that would have been missed otherwise, which is part of what BIM is all about.