topic Re: Integrated Project Delivery - What Does That Mean to You in Collaboration with other software

Integrated Project Delivery - What Does That Mean to You?

Aaron Bourgoin — Mon, 29 Sep 2008 15:34:35 GMT

There's been a lot of Industry News lately talking about the Manufacturing Sector and their adoption of technologies around the concept of Project Data Management. Most of the respected "CAD" pundits talk of nothing else these days, but I wonder if the amount of column inches devoted to teh manufacturing sector is happening at the expense of a discussion about data management in the design and construction of buildings.

The A/E/C Economy touts BIM as its methodology of choice and this has recently evolved into a concept called Integrated Project Delivery.

IPD should have benefits for all the constituents of the Construction Economy - clients, designers, builders. The integration part of this is they key piece. The one that might actually see the sharing of data by all parties and in all phases of work.

Are PDM and IDP the same thing? Does one truly inform the other. Where do the parallels start and end?

I'd like to ask BDC as a Builder to start this thread by sharing what he has learned about IPD and to discuss what he/she she thinks needs to happen to bring this about.

Of course, I'd invite everyone else to weigh in on this topic as well.

Re: Integrated Project Delivery - What Does That Mean to You

Anonymous — Tue, 30 Sep 2008 05:22:53 GMT

Intergrated Practices are the future for Design Engineering and Construction. Fragmented data and file translations are the past.For me math based dynamic data analysis is an area I'm interested in and researching at the moment it should link into the 3d models at some stage but until then.Sorry,I cant say much more than that.
Cheers

Re: Integrated Project Delivery - What Does That Mean to You

Anonymous — Tue, 30 Sep 2008 18:17:05 GMT

I was having this discussion with the project manager on one of our jobs. I was telling him about "single purpose entities" which in the US is a legal entity that includes the client, the architect and all the engineers. People on this team are seconded to the SPE for work on the project. Data is shared on the same network.

The project manager with whom I was speaking said, they probably do that so that after the SPE is disbanded after the project, there's no one to sue (it's the US after all!). And I thought, oh yeah -- that.

So maybe it's about reducing liability during design, construction and occupancy. The lawyers cometh! Beware!

Re: Integrated Project Delivery - What Does That Mean to You

Anonymous — Tue, 30 Sep 2008 20:57:22 GMT

First of all - thank you, Aaron, for some of very interesting links you have posted recently.

Answering the topic you raised and first responses - sure, data exchange among all involved parties in all stages of project is a very important thing. Yet, it alone won't make Integrated projects happen. From mine as an architect perspective - for truly integrated project crucial is its vision. And then all involved human parties can shift their efforts to that direction with having more or less constraints.

Let me give two hypothetical examples. First one is the one, where vision is very much rooted in ambition, first of all - client's, then - architect's. There is some kind of crazy idea, and then it is only the question how to get there. The integrative character of project and its delivery lies in 1) in ability of consultants and others involved to support that vision and 2) architect's or leader's ability to push the boundary in the given support as far as possible.

The second example is much more modest and are much more rooted in constraints. The client is having some money for a building, yet not a penny more, and to fulfill this intent architect, consultants and contractor teams up. Architect is developing some ideas - how the program can be arranged in the given context, in the given land-usage constraints, is modelling it, and tossing it to the others. The others are giving their input too, f.e. constractors are saying something like - you know, steep roof is cheaper than horizontal, so why not change it? And possibly, architect makes it a bit more steep, so to save money that can be spend in public space, etc. Here the integrative character of project lies somewhere in "the middle".

Going back to the topic in this forum - I wish that the overall vision (which is evolving together with project) is clearly known to everyone involved. (And it can be documented and comunicated with some kind of software) Similarily the constraints from each one of the parties are easily transmitted to the others as well.

---
Best wishes!
Zigurds.

Re: Integrated Project Delivery - What Does That Mean to You

Anonymous — Tue, 30 Sep 2008 23:46:47 GMT

Zigurds wrote:
Going back to the topic in this forum - I wish that the overall vision (which is evolving together with project) is clearly known to everyone involved. (And it can be documented and comunicated with some kind of software) Similarily the constraints from each one of the parties are easily transmitted to the others as well.

---
Best wishes!
Zigurds.

You are right it boils down to how the changing data is communicated and then documented to the team which includes the client.You incorrectly assume that the BIM software company will take responsibilities in the contract...hey mate they'll gladly take profits without responsibility.
Would you trust Autocad and Nemetschek with your business,they cant get the parametrics right how on earth are they going to do matrix calculations? Constraints are viewed as upper and lower boundaries
They are easily dealt with.

Re: Integrated Project Delivery - What Does That Mean to You

Rob — Wed, 01 Oct 2008 00:15:25 GMT

BDC...oh for god sake - the troll is back

guys do not answer this ... BDC is a well known troll on this forum.

Re: Integrated Project Delivery - What Does That Mean to You

Anonymous — Wed, 01 Oct 2008 00:43:55 GMT

Rob wrote:
BDC...oh for god sake - the troll is back

guys do not answer this ... BDC is a well known troll on this forum.

Well I was invited to comment,and unless you're got something to contribute then F.O. Talking about trolling get rid of that outfit,Dude.

Re: Integrated Project Delivery - What Does That Mean to You

Aaron Bourgoin — Wed, 01 Oct 2008 14:59:43 GMT

OK. Let's try again. BDC was invited to share his ex[ertise on a topic.

BDC. Over to you.

Again.

Re: Integrated Project Delivery - What Does That Mean to You

Anonymous — Thu, 02 Oct 2008 01:29:28 GMT

Aaron wrote:
OK. Let's try again. BDC was invited to share his ex[ertise on a topic.

BDC. Over to you.

Again.

Look you guys are the ones with the most to loose if there is no collaboration and sharing of data, and you can dig in and maintain the status quo and only Use the Architects Model and Data. As for Nemetschek they are wasting precious resources in pitting each program against each other. For what It's worth you need to watch out for Bentley their programes are very efficent in dealing with 3D data and intergrated disciplines(Sorry Im stating the obvious).I can keep going on about the 3D model,it is only a small part albeit important.but eventually it will be simplified/automated.(Rant)
Its not about me.

Re: Integrated Project Delivery - What Does That Mean to You

Aaron Bourgoin — Thu, 02 Oct 2008 04:39:45 GMT

Stop being so baffling. Good writing is done with an audience in mind and I wish I weren't compelled to say that you like to write solely for yourself.

I'm not anything but curious. And I have yet to understand how what you write here is germane to the question.

Re: Integrated Project Delivery - What Does That Mean to You

Anonymous — Thu, 02 Oct 2008 06:41:37 GMT

Aaron wrote:
Stop being so baffling. Good writing is done with an audience in mind and I wish I weren't compelled to say that you like to write solely for yourself.

I'm not anything but curious. And I have yet to understand how what you write here is germane to the question.

Seriously, I dont think people are interested in why data analysis has become so important to me and my clients.If you are curious you can leave a PM.

Re: Integrated Project Delivery - What Does That Mean to You

Aaron Bourgoin — Thu, 02 Oct 2008 14:53:57 GMT

If you PM it, I'll post it.

I'm trying to start a dialog.

And keep one going.

ArchiCAD-Talk is losing its edge as a forum for discussing larger issues. The tenor of the discussions on this board has become more somber in the last year and I don't understand why.

Re: Integrated Project Delivery - What Does That Mean to You

Anonymous — Thu, 02 Oct 2008 23:52:03 GMT

Look this is the way I,My clients and others see it .Building Information Modelling is a subset of Data Information Modelling,Clients are now becoming more concerned about the implications of not getting the data right than the hdri render settings.

Re: Integrated Project Delivery - What Does That Mean to You

Djordje — Fri, 03 Oct 2008 05:30:32 GMT

BDC wrote:
Rob wrote:
BDC...oh for god sake - the troll is back

guys do not answer this ... BDC is a well known troll on this forum.
Well I was invited to comment,and unless you're got something to contribute then F.O. Talking about trolling get rid of that outfit,Dude.

Mind the language.

Your past record is full of trolling, insulting and using bad langauage. So please take care or face the consequences.

Re: Integrated Project Delivery - What Does That Mean to You

Aaron Bourgoin — Fri, 03 Oct 2008 07:35:41 GMT

Ok. So what is Data Information Modeling? And what might this have to do with overall project delivery and what might the tie from BIM to DIM?

Re: Integrated Project Delivery - What Does That Mean to You

Anonymous — Fri, 03 Oct 2008 07:44:50 GMT

Ohh...fair go..that was in the distant past,we share common goals now please excuse my bad mannners and feel free to delete whatever you want.Cheers

Re: Integrated Project Delivery - What Does That Mean to You

Djordje — Fri, 03 Oct 2008 08:59:46 GMT

BDC wrote:
Ohh...fair go..that was in the distant past,we share common goals now please excuse my bad mannners and feel free to delete whatever you want.Cheers

Glad to know that

Re: Integrated Project Delivery - What Does That Mean to You

Anonymous — Fri, 03 Oct 2008 10:03:12 GMT

Aaron wrote:
Ok. BIM to DIM?

When I see stuff like that you leave yourself wide open.
and I'm resisting being terminated.You need to Analyze the Data First and predict outcomes ( switch the clients lights on) and then move to BIM not the other way around.Some believe the BIM Model will contain all the data...I'm not sure about that, some of the data doesn't translate to the BIM Model directly, eg economic data =>the increasing price of steel =>Structural design changes in the Steel Code => Impact of new standards on designs and so on,but all data needs to be presented to the client its their choice.we mathematically analyze and predict outcomes with a very high degree of accuracy now...Take a look at Maplesoft.
Maybe someone else can fill in the Blanks.HTH

Re: Integrated Project Delivery - What Does That Mean to You

Aaron Bourgoin — Sat, 04 Oct 2008 16:15:10 GMT

I'm wide open to being informed. [180,000 unemployed comedians in Australia and you want to be one?]

Integrated Project Delivery implies the sharing of information across disciplines in order to design, build and hopefully maintain a building over a long life span. That's not happening because we don't communicate with one another or engage in a process where we all work from the same data set.

We're currently hooped because we're all looking at the elephant from different viewpoints, or with the Babylonians, our tongues are now confused at that big jobsite called Babel.

BDC, thank you for the link to MapleSoft, a proud Canadian company. I don't even need to check out the link to surmise that you've built your own proprietary tools to solve your own internal issues.

Might you identify one of them - just one to start - and take us through what the problem is, how you address it and how you might share the resultant as information for the whole team. Do you need to, or is your use of tools strictly for your own advantage?

My concern is that your system - brilliant as it might be - doesn't have anything to say to anyone else on the team or can't communicate it in a fashion that is useful to anyone else. Maybe you could show me that I'm wrong. Maybe you could show me how that serves your client's best interests - in the long run, in the grand scheme of things, etc.

I'm wide open.

Re: Integrated Project Delivery - What Does That Mean to You

Anonymous — Sun, 05 Oct 2008 03:48:11 GMT

Comedy is a great way to lessen stress.Ive already said,"its not about me."Sorry Aaron thats it, Im working on the engineering side now.Cheers