topic Re: how to list two parts of 1 object in separate line item? in Collaboration with other software

how to list two parts of 1 object in separate line item?

Erika Epstein — Thu, 25 Feb 2010 00:47:56 GMT

Hi,
I can make an FF&E schedule easily enough EXCEPT when I need two parts of one item to be listed on separate lines. For example instead of using the faucet that comes with a sink, I use separate objects and then can list by ID as separate line items.

I am having trouble with for example a toilet where the client wants a separate line item for the seat. Short of putting in a dummy object, is there a way to amend the code? Or?

Bathroom humor welcome if accompanied by a constructive answer

Re: how to list two parts of 1 object in separate line item?

Erika Epstein — Fri, 26 Feb 2010 16:04:51 GMT

From the lack of response, I gather correctly there isn't a way to do this with IS?

Is there another approach to doing this in AC? perhaps using the listing?

Re: how to list two parts of 1 object in separate line item?

Karl Ottenstein — Fri, 26 Feb 2010 16:39:34 GMT

Hi Erika,

Yes, no way with the IS: it provides at most one entry per element, with the option to collapse multiple elements into one line.

The only way to get multiple items from a single element is with a list scheme. An object itself could have a property script which would cause it to output multiple items. More typically, a property object would be linked to the object (via a matching process, or manual assignment) and that property object would cause the desired data to be listed for as many lines / components as required.

Cheers,
Karl

Re: how to list two parts of 1 object in separate line item?

Erika Epstein — Fri, 26 Feb 2010 16:54:19 GMT

Darn.
Is there an example of how to do this somewhere or should I try again with Eric Wilk's book?

Re: how to list two parts of 1 object in separate line item?

Karl Ottenstein — Fri, 26 Feb 2010 21:51:41 GMT

Erika wrote:
Darn.
Is there an example of how to do this somewhere or should I try again with Eric Wilk's book?

I wrote this tutorial a few years ago off the cuff:
http://archicad-talk.graphisoft.com/viewtopic.php?t=755

It still applies, because nothing has changed with regards to the sample property objects delivered with the US version since 6.5 or 7.0, other than where in the library things are stored. In US 13, the sample property objects are located in:

/Applications/Graphisoft/ArchiCAD 13/ArchiCAD Library 13/List Templates 13/Property Data 13/US_Property Data 13/Parametric Assemblies 13

on the Mac; Program Files\Graphisoft etc on Windows.

Eric's book is perhaps the most detailed description available of setting things up for a full materials take-off, but you're doing something much more simple, so should not be as complex as that at all. The thing is that if you want your list to schedule anything beyond the toilets (wc itself, and seat separately), then you need to associate a property script with all other plumbing or whatever objects so that you get a single useful schedule. Big hassle, which is why the interactive / element schedules are so nice with their friendly UI...other than that they cannot cope with this 1 into 2 issue that you have.

Do note: I've complained about this often in various threads, but worth repeating - ArchiCAD uses the word "component" for at least three different things. The "component schedules" introduced in 10 or 11 let you schedule the bits and pieces that make up complex profiled elements, or the skins of composite walls. These components have nothing at all to do with the components that you find inside property scripts / objects and inside the database defined in the Calculate menu.

What is the overall schedule that you want to generate? Plumbing fixtures? Or?

Cheers,
Karl

Re: how to list two parts of 1 object in separate line item?

vfrontiers — Sat, 27 Feb 2010 15:15:28 GMT

Erika,

I had the same issue... My solution was to CHEAT.... entering one of the CUSTOM Variables as "ACCESSORIES" and merely typing in the box...

so ... looks something like..

SNK-1 KOHLER U899490 w/ HANS GROHE K3i4004

Obviously tough to count the number of Faucets that match!... but that's not what I needed. Suppose it's possible to export to Excel for some spreadsheet magic.

Re: how to list two parts of 1 object in separate line item?

Erika Epstein — Sun, 28 Feb 2010 00:10:48 GMT

Hi Duane,
Thanks Duane, I'm glad to hear you are also using the 'Cheat' method. That has been ok until now when I needI need to make separate line items for the toilet and its seat. Similarly the bed includes a box spring/mattress set, frame and a headboard. After that the bedding and decorative pillows etc.

Karl's wall example I've had no trouble following. When I try to do the same with the proverbial toilet I get stuck at creating the property script. In the wall example there was a property script to edit. Sigh.

I'm just sitting down to give it another go.

The other question I have is the resultant List is UGLY. There does not seem to be a way to pretty it up as in IS.

Lets hope 14 makes strides with this BIM activity being user friendly.

Re: how to list two parts of 1 object in separate line item?

Erich — Sun, 28 Feb 2010 01:48:17 GMT

Erika wrote:
Lets hope 14 makes strides with this BIM activity being user friendly.

I hope that 14 addresses this too...and that we our firm can afford to upgrade after the past year.

My work around for this issue on a recent project was to just export to excel. Honestly, I often do this, as I find the interactive schedules VERY SLOW and cumbersome to work with - though perhaps that is just my workflow. Also the parameter inconsistency between object is enough to drive one batty.

Re: how to list two parts of 1 object in separate line item?

Karl Ottenstein — Sun, 28 Feb 2010 03:36:56 GMT

Erika wrote:
Karl's wall example I've had no trouble following. When I try to do the same with the proverbial toilet I get stuck at creating the property script. In the wall example there was a property script to edit. Sigh.

Hi Erika,

My last post for a week or so while I'm away...

For the examples you gave, I do not believe you should have to write a script at all (see below) - or if you do, it will just have one line per component generated (toilet, seat; bed frame, box spring, mattress, etc).

The wall script is complicated because it is computing quantities based on the size of the wall, so has a bit of math to do. No match in your examples, thankfully.

What you want to do is either edit the database (Calc menu - and Eric's book talk about it some) to include the items that you need. Or, just manually type in a code and a name for the things you want to generate in the "Components" panel of the Property object.

See screenshot. There, I imagined that I had one of those single-unit stacked washer dryer things, but that I wanted to generate a takeoff that showed a washer and a dryer. Dumb example, but anyway...

In the Components section, I clicked new, and linked the new item to the existing database that has a washer and a dryer in it, and notes that they are just 'items', not proportional to the size of anything ... and that the units are "each'. I could have just typed all of that stuff in if I didn't need it in the database for future projects / scripts.

This property object would then be 'linked' to the washer-dryer object. When a component list is generated, it would spit out the things listed in the screenshot - 1 each of the washer and dryer.

Hope that helps. Cheers,
Karl

Re: how to list two parts of 1 object in separate line item?

Anonymous — Sun, 28 Feb 2010 09:05:42 GMT

Erika,

I had the same issue.. My solution is somewhat similar to Karl's, but for less powerful brains (like mine). I see what he's doing, but I've never been able to get it to work right.

Instead, I've written some simple 'dummy' objects that contain all the parameters needed for different schedules and lists... For instance, there's ones for plumbing fixtures, appliances, mechanical units, etc. If I have an object that is really a combination of two elements (like toilet & seat), and I need them to list separately, I first place the one visible object (the toilet), then place one of my 'dummy' objects right over it. The dummy objects are specifically designed to avoid display in the model. There's a small visible footprint that is set by it's parameters to use my 'no-see-it' (#10) pen. I can see it faintly on my model screen, but it doesn't show in a layout.

The dummy objects are based on my standard object subtypes that I'd use for the given type of thing I'm referencing - it contains all the 'must be present' parameters for scheduling. Works great for my setup.

Hope that makes sense. It's super-easy to do.

Also, I commented about this same thing earlier tonight in another thread. That is here:

http://archicad-talk.graphisoft.com/viewtopic.php?t=31461&sid=a312f9c22264ac6997791e9c3770b978

Hope that's helpful. Glad to hear you're still employed! You should be.. You're a sharp operator.

Talk soon...

Re: how to list two parts of 1 object in separate line item?

vfrontiers — Sun, 28 Feb 2010 16:16:18 GMT

Hey Karl,

When you get back...

[PREFACE]
I am not "bagging" on anyone or AC, just trying to explore this idea. All of a sudden, I'm interested in it... I did a lot of work with DATABASE back when there was no IS. Trying to teach people how to use was a chore. I don't relish going back there to accomplish this.
[end PREFACE]

It appears that Erika (and I) need to LIST these things WITH ATTRIBUTES, like Make, Model No., Finish etc.... Really the job of the IS, no?

So... Two minutes with the COMPONENT SCHEDULE, it would appear this clearly needs a lot of work...

1. Allow the component SCHEDULING of OBJECTS... why can't we do that?
or am I missing something? Why would OBJECTS be any different than walls or slabs in terms of needing to schedule their components.

2. It seems that extra VARIABLES can be used in the Schedule, so if you were consistent with their use, I believe there is a solution to itemize components within a schedule. For example, if custom 1 always equals mattress manufacturer. No, it's not pretty, but a step along the evolutionary schedule. A users keen editing of OBJECT TEMPLATES could set this up in a more clear manner. [side note: it's too bad the idea of CONTAINER is so locked in.. still wish we could edit objects within the container more easily]

3. I am still pushing for the ability to schedule LABEL OBJECTS... I see this [still, for the past 5years] as an IDEAL way to provide more "buckets" for information to stuffed into the BIM file. If GS can see the benefit of scheduling object components, then please don't leave out LABELS.

[FOOTNOTE:]
I am stuck in AC12; so if anything has been done in AC13, please let me know. I'll go borrow some money and upgrade!

---& please, please, please [GS] make the IS environment FASTER... it stinks....

Thanks for listening,

Re: how to list two parts of 1 object in separate line item?

vfrontiers — Sun, 28 Feb 2010 16:21:46 GMT

Also,

Akin to Dave's use of dummy objects, I too have used / created objects for use in schedules...

For example, I always seem to need a more "cutting edge" sink than those provided... so I create it and place an TAP object for the faucet. Here, I found the TAP object for the AC Sinks and simply used it.

Again, still waiting for the day when we can schedule LABELS... Would help with a lot of ACCESSORY type issues...

Re: how to list two parts of 1 object in separate line item?

SeaGeoff — Sun, 28 Feb 2010 17:20:13 GMT

Another benefit of scheduling labels is the ability to run calculations within the label object. Since the IS cannot (currently) do anything with the values it spits out (other than summing columns) calcs could be performed in the label script then reported in the IS.

Re: how to list two parts of 1 object in separate line item?

Erich — Sun, 28 Feb 2010 18:22:45 GMT

vfrontiers wrote:
---& please, please, please [GS] make the IS environment FASTER... it stinks....,

God yes!! I would pay for the next upgrade myself for this!

Re: how to list two parts of 1 object in separate line item?

Anonymous — Sun, 28 Feb 2010 18:28:33 GMT

To my surprise I couldn't find any wishes for scheduling labels so I added one here.

(I only looked in documentation wishes, so maybe there is an old wish somewhere else.)

Re: how to list two parts of 1 object in separate line item?

vfrontiers — Sun, 28 Feb 2010 21:11:44 GMT

Matthew wrote:
To my surprise I couldn't find any wishes for scheduling labels so I added one here.

(I only looked in documentation wishes, so maybe there is an old wish somewhere else.)

Thanks Matthew! I am sure I've posted one or two before... Maybe not in the right spot? or noted as a WISH...

Re: how to list two parts of 1 object in separate line item?

Erika Epstein — Sun, 28 Feb 2010 21:40:21 GMT

Dave, Yes I've been doing a work around of dummy objects but this really is as you know a nightmare to manage and we shouldn't have to do this.

Duane re"I am stuck in AC12; so if anything has been done in AC13, please let me know. I'll go borrow some money and upgrade! " save your money.

I'm still trying to get Karl's method to work, I think I'll just go find a tree to bang my head on it for a while. 🙂

As Duane described and we are all screaming about, we need these improvements in the ability to list and schedule to match real world needs. Other than cosmetic we have had no improvements in this area of archicad. BIM is here and we need it NOW.
Alas, not quite the same ring as ye olde "I want my MTV".

Re: how to list two parts of 1 object in separate line item?

Anonymous — Mon, 01 Mar 2010 00:36:56 GMT

Erika,

Dave, Yes I've been doing a work around of dummy objects but this really is as you know a nightmare to manage and we shouldn't have to do this.

Yeah, I suppose... BUT.. I'm only talking four or five instances in a typical residential project. The vast majority of the objects I schedule do indeed appear as visible on the plan. BTW.. For your toilet example.. My schedule would show the toilet's seat part number in the 'Trim' column on the toilet's line. I don't actually use a 'dummy' object for the seat specification... It's a part of the toilet's specification.

Duane - You're at the pointy end of the spear from my perspective! I'm still using AC9!! I skipped 10 and 11, but do have 12. I've tried it out, but there's significant reliability issues in some very grass-roots areas, so I never migrated (did one job in AC12). Those may be fixed by now. Still, I love 9's 'race car' like handling.... It's definitely the 'sweet spot' iteration of AC for my purposes. Just sayin'.

One more thing, too... At this point, there's only a handful of native AC objects in any of my projects. Most of my objects are either custom-edited copies of GS objects, or scratch-built. The point is this... I've got a fully developed set of standards for all my parameters setup in object subtype GDL's, so if we're dealing with any sort of plumbing item, it's got the 'Plumbing Fixture Parameters' subtype checked, and all those parameters are present in the object, no matter what. The template has around twenty parameters, can be added to at any time, and will GLOBALLY change ALL plumbing related object parameter definitions. Wasn't sure if I communicated that in the prior post.

Interesting thread!

Re: how to list two parts of 1 object in separate line item?

Anonymous — Sun, 01 Jul 2012 05:39:58 GMT

It Will be very nice to have keynote build into Archicad but for now there is simple work around.
Use automatic Labels and make schedule with two fields ID and Label Text.(image below)

You will also need to adjust setting for the label to show ID or create a new one with ID field shown as code and text field showing name of the object.
That method works well with objects, windows and doors. It is becoming a bit tricky with walls, slabs and roofs, as they don't have names just fills.