topic Re: window glazing surface in window schedule....any schedul in Collaboration with other software

window glazing surface in window schedule....any schedule?

Jefferson — Fri, 22 Apr 2011 03:23:18 GMT

Our building officials have finally adopted energy standards requiring wall surface vs. glazing surfaces and subsequent percentages. So I am trying in vein to find the path to these answers in AC scheduling and it is completely illuding me.......

Is there a way to get my window glazing surface to appear in my window schedule? I can't even make it come up in the dialog box........!

I could swear I've seen this before. I know how to manually generate this, with area fills etc. & subtraction, but seems that AC knows this information and there is a way, or should be, to generate and display it for me........if only I can figure out how to ask.

And although I want to understand how to create these and manipulate them, I'm not above asking for cheat sheets, as in someone's .xml file of a schedule that already does this, hint.......

Any and all assistance would/will be greatly appreciated........

Re: window glazing surface in window schedule....any schedul

Steve Jepson — Fri, 22 Apr 2011 08:22:57 GMT

Here's the little bugger. Depends some on which widow your using.
This is where it's hiding in 14. I am not sure about 12.

Re: window glazing surface in window schedule....any schedul

Anonymous — Fri, 22 Apr 2011 11:35:36 GMT

Steve wrote:
This is where it's hiding in 14.

gs_list_glassarea is a user input parameter, not extracted automatically from the model.

I would also like to be able to list the glass area automatically, if anybody can help us.

Re: window glazing surface in window schedule....any schedul

Steve Jepson — Fri, 22 Apr 2011 12:35:15 GMT

Could it be a wall parameter rather than a window parameter?

Like " Analytic surface of wall opeing on the reference line side of the wall"
or similar ?

Re: window glazing surface in window schedule....any schedul

Anonymous — Fri, 22 Apr 2011 12:52:19 GMT

It is not the surface of the opening that I need, but of the glass.

Re: window glazing surface in window schedule....any schedul

Steve Jepson — Fri, 22 Apr 2011 13:01:23 GMT

Yes. But it may even be a parameter of a zone or something I can't recall.
Were is the definition of Analytic surface vs Conditional surfaces ?
It is going to be in some place we would not normally think of.
There is a window surface in the zone parameters. It does not equate to glass surface, however, check the calculation procedures. The design data for the windows may include the whole window or even a nominal surface area of the window.
The reason the glass area of a window is not so easy to extract is because it would require just a little bit of actual calculation on the part of the program and ArchiCAD sucks at that. Not that it can't handel the gdl scripting, I man that they don't want to put that much into making the parts for us. Changes in stile width, sash, muntin, rail, etc...... are all editable and it would take a little extra work to script the glass area. I don't think they ever put even a little extra work into calculations.

Also, the calculations for a U value would be based on a unit rating.
for example with doors, which might have a lite. I don't know.

You may just have to do it the hard way and use your elevations. Explode a copy, and extract the surface area of the fills for glass.

Since the schedule needs to show that in a percentage of wall surface to glazing, you going to need to get real fancy with the schedule or save as Excel Workbook finish it in Excel and print to .pdf to but back in.

My guess is that the authority having jurisdiction will want you to do the calculations based on the U value of the window applied to the nominal window size. It may depend on if your following Manual J or a prescriptive code.

Here ya go Jeff. I think this is the latest.

http://www.energy.wsu.edu/Documents/2009%20WSEC%20Chapters%201-10.pdf
Per this code, it's actually the rough opening you need to use. See page 27.

"GLAZING AREA: Total area of the glazing measured using the rough opening, and including the glazing, sash and frame. For doors where the daylight opening area is less than 50 percent of the door area, the glazing area is the daylight opening area. For all other doors, the glazing area is the door area."

Re: window glazing surface in window schedule....any schedul

Jefferson — Fri, 22 Apr 2011 14:39:47 GMT

Thanks Steve for giving it a go, but already been there......and I guess it's "good to know" I'm not the only one who's trying to find this answer. Although I'll certainly be a lot happier when I do!

edit: I hadn't seen you're last sentence there about rough opening until after I posted..........I'm definetly opting for Perscriptive if at all possible and will follow up on this!

The bitch it seems is that the parameter for glass area, or even perimeter is zero, so that's what you get in a schedule......

I have privately sent out a call for help to a couple of our bigger minded contributors asking for some input here. My fear is this can't be accomplished, or perhaps it's a GDL scripting task, which would understandbly be leaving me in the dust on this one

Re: window glazing surface in window schedule....any schedul

Jefferson — Fri, 22 Apr 2011 14:42:14 GMT

and here's why............AC is telling us that windows have no glazing area. I beleive if this information could be "updated" or calculated it then shows up in the schedule

Re: window glazing surface in window schedule....any schedul

Jefferson — Fri, 22 Apr 2011 15:04:29 GMT

So think I found the parameter that will display in a schedule, the full window area, which for now is enough to satisfy me, [I'm running out of steam and need to get back to work!], and hope for more complete and detailed/accurate glazing only information later.

Re: window glazing surface in window schedule....any schedul

Jefferson — Fri, 22 Apr 2011 15:14:38 GMT

I have created this funky little schedule to do calculate areas, then I'll probably export it to Excel and run them, hopefully with an automated formula...

I haven't created or used schedule except for windows and doors. From everything I have on this forum they sound finicky at best, and my experience with doors and windows backs that up. They will do what you want so long as you're spot on with input, but the sheer number of parameters, and therefore opportunuiites to screw it up are anxiety provoking........with trimmed walls, even more I "dunno". I'll know more later I guess.

So, assuming I can trust my input and and AC's output.......a manual proof/check will have to be run a coupe of times before I trust either of us. My ability to input information correctly, and therefore get the accurate return information I'm after is still a question. I have read many a post about schedules giving inaccurate information and this leaves me very uneasy about just going with it.

Re: window glazing surface in window schedule....any schedul

Steve Jepson — Fri, 22 Apr 2011 15:22:35 GMT

Jefferson wrote:
and here's why............AC is telling us that windows have no glazing area. I beleive if this information could be "updated" or calculated it then shows up in the schedule

Actually, what your seeing there is the place you would enter the total area of the glass manually so it will show up in the schedule when you use the first parameter I posted. It's not much good unless your saving that window to use as a Favorite.

Re: window glazing surface in window schedule....any schedul

Jefferson — Fri, 22 Apr 2011 15:26:24 GMT

Right Steve, but manual entry is exactly what I'm tryting to avoid! Otherwise just do the cover fill with holes routine, once per wall and you're done. If I have to manually enter each window's area, well........

Re: window glazing surface in window schedule....any schedul

Steve Jepson — Fri, 22 Apr 2011 16:25:36 GMT

So it looks like we will need to be adding wall surface areas to the window schedule too. And here is another schedule we will need soon.
Total area of Daylighting zones.

The daylighting zone width is assumed to be the width of the window plus either two feet on each side (the distance to an opaque partition) or one-half the distance to adjacent overhead or vertical glazing, whichever is least.

Re: window glazing surface in window schedule....any schedul

Jefferson — Tue, 26 Apr 2011 19:45:56 GMT

Coming to better defined understanding of what my local building authority requires I have a new process to extract and publish that information..........derived from the model as much as possible.

Window glazing surface is considered the area of the entire unit........this negates my original request, [based on information from previously mentioned building officials], for specific glazing surface. I simply added that parameter to my window schedule and rearranged it. That total area is then calculated as what percentage of the conditioned, [heated], floor space area. All pretty straight forward..........it unfortunately, we, [or I...?], can't complete all of these tasks inside ArchiCAD.

So my window schedule is exported as an Excel file. Then fields are added to total window area, unwanted fields removed, the floor surface is added, and finally a formula is included to determine the percentage of window area to floor space. A requirement to determine which type of prescriptive method your structure qualifies for. Finally it's "prettied up" to appear consistent with the rest of my published schedules, saved as a PDF and placed in layout. [see attachment]

Sadly, as discussed in places I searched in this forum, the AC schedule does not, [to my knowledge and boy please set me straight if I have this wrong!!], have the ability to run basic calculations .........like total columns, or run some percentages within a schedule.......how much do we miss the now extinct OLE!

So now a I have template Excel file with formulas and format ready to insert similar information from future projects into, to go through this whole process over again. How wonderful it would be to have some replacement work-around like OLE or either:

1] a schedule that could run calculations. [Is this a GDL possibility?]............eliminating the need to export, import, import and then keep MANUALLY updated! I find reliance on manual updating anything a dangerous precedent, mistakes, big ones sometimes can be or are made this way!

2] alternately, find a way to "hotlink" my PDF files from their source Excel.

With PDFs as preferred external file format for placement on documents in AC the quest now is for a way to auto-update those placed PDF files from Excel. It was discussed but not quite resolved here:
http://archicad-talk.graphisoft.com/viewtopic.php?p=169276&highlight=excel+schedule#169276

If there's any a way to achieve this it would be great to know about it..........for everyone I would think.

Re: window glazing surface in window schedule....any schedul

Ernest Atanasiu — Wed, 27 Apr 2011 07:03:30 GMT

you have spoken my thoughts exactly.