topic Re: ArchiCAD/Revit shootout proposal in Collaboration with other software

ArchiCAD/Revit shootout proposal

Djordje — Thu, 11 Dec 2003 18:46:05 GMT

Canadians, are you ready?

There is a proposal on Revit discussion group to organize a shootout.

http://www.zoogdesign.com/forums/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=1806

Good idea! With good people on both sides this can turn into a VERY interesting event!

Re: ArchiCAD/Revit shootout proposal

David Bearss — Fri, 19 Dec 2003 19:04:59 GMT

A shootout would be interesting. As a former Revit user I am a little curious to see how it has evolved since they were acquired.

Re: ArchiCAD/Revit shootout proposal

Anonymous — Fri, 19 Dec 2003 19:30:49 GMT

Sounds good to me. I have never seen the two side by side (or head to head).

I've helped Geoff Langdon with several of his CADD Shootout events but Revit was never represented. Perhaps Geoff would be interested in helping out. His past experience with the live events could be helpful and he is the most widely experienced architectural CAD expert I know. (He has occasionally posted to this forum.)

Revit certainly has many advanced features due to its recent "clean slate" origins, while ArchiCAD has the maturity and sofistication that comes from years of refinement. I, for one, would like to see both programs grow and prosper through heathy competition (and copying each other's ideas) so that we may all have the best possible stuff in the future. (Remember that despite all the Mac/PC bashing that goes on, neither would be nearly as good without the other.)

Re: ArchiCAD/Revit shootout proposal

David Collins — Sat, 20 Dec 2003 10:12:31 GMT

I sat in on this year's ShootOut at Build Boston in November. Actually, "shootout" is the wrong term because Geoff had turned the event into a pro bono charette for a real project. Commendable, of course, but as a "shootout" it was as interesting as watching paint dry.

Participants were encouraged to participate with their software of choice and interestingly, most of the teams were using ArchiCad. At one point, Geoff was asked about the absence of Revit and he mysteriously replied that he had an opinion concerning why it wasn't in evidence, but declined to share it with us. He was also doing a workshop on 'Cad and the Small Firm" at the same conference and perhaps didn't want to duplicate too much information for the sake of people who were going to attend that workshop as well.

Geoff? Are you there? Care to comment?

Re: ArchiCAD/Revit shootout proposal

Anonymous — Mon, 22 Dec 2003 21:10:23 GMT

This year the event was called the CAD challenge rather than shoot-out because of the format change. From what I understand it was becoming difficult to impossible to get enough vendors to sponsor teams (for a variety of reasons). I believe that Geoff is trying to find a new way to convey a meaningful comparison of the different CAD softwares and how people use them in a real situation.

In previous years it was a true shoot-out and quite intense for the participants. It seems his experience with these previous event could be informative in setting up this one (AC v Revit).

I assume that this event would be web based. Does anyone have some ideas as to how it might be structured?
- Who would create the program? (A neutral party presumably.)
- Who would execute the work? (Vendors and/or users.)
- What would be the constraints? (Time, staff etc.)
- How would it be presented? (What are the deliverables?)

Re: ArchiCAD/Revit shootout proposal

vfrontiers — Thu, 25 Dec 2003 06:59:27 GMT

Matthew wrote:
This year the event was called the CAD challenge rather than shoot-out because of the format change. From what I understand it was becoming difficult to impossible to get enough vendors to sponsor teams (for a variety of reasons). I believe that Geoff is trying to find a new way to convey a meaningful comparison of the different CAD softwares and how people use them in a real situation.

In previous years it was a true shoot-out and quite intense for the participants. It seems his experience with these previous event could be informative in setting up this one (AC v Revit).

I assume that this event would be web based. Does anyone have some ideas as to how it might be structured?
- Who would create the program? (A neutral party presumably.)
- Who would execute the work? (Vendors and/or users.)
- What would be the constraints? (Time, staff etc.)
- How would it be presented? (What are the deliverables?)

I guess that would depend on what you are actually after as a result of this "shootout". My impression has always been that you need to EXTRACT OUT the "Architecture" and emphasize the CAD... So it should not be a DESIGN charrette but a PRESENTATION charrette.

My proposal would be to create a typical PROGRAM AND provide a SOLUTION in graphic or written form. Maybe even the DESIGNER's Napkin Sketches. From here, each team would be responsible to PRESENT it with the software of choice. I would suggest providing the PROGRAM ahead of time while showing the SOLUTION only once the competition has started. That way, the teams can gear up for Commercial or Residential or Medical, etc. without "cheating".

The output should be prescriptive in the sense that there are MANDATORY drawings to show while leaving the complete presentation up to the team. Teams could get EXTRA CREDIT for some creative use of the tool or presentation idea. It would be my preference to have not only RENDERINGS mandatory, but plans and sections and elevations as well.

Then you will have to consider if the teams are allowed to use MORE than just their own program. I would suggest that 3rd Party software designed specifically for the main software be allowed, therefore we can have ZOOM GDL, etc. and AutoCAD can have ADT and so on.

Each team should be able to sponsor their own members. I would prefer that the manufacturer's actually sponsor them, but that could mean some "selection" process would be necessary [like tryouts or pro sports draft]...

Just some ideas to start! Happy holidays!... I better get to sleep, so Santa can bring me my new G5/3ghz Quad Processor!

Re: ArchiCAD/Revit shootout proposal

MMontgomery — Tue, 24 Feb 2004 15:24:46 GMT

Just curious to know, whatever came of this?

I've been reading the Revit forums a bit lately and I've noticed a few things that Revit is unable to do that we seem to take for granted - i.e the special snap points, relative construction constraints, sketch rendering...etc. (Does Revit have anything comparable to the Omnipotent Magic Wand?) I'd be interested to see what things Revit can do that ArchiCAD can't - beyond the things like 'ease of use' which can be so subjective and meaningless once you've learned the program.

Cheers!

Re: ArchiCAD/Revit shootout proposal

Scott Davis — Sat, 13 Mar 2004 01:41:13 GMT

Special Snap Points? relative construction constraints? Omnipotent Magic Wand?

Can you explain these tools?

Revit does not yet have sketch rendering, but it has been requested, and I expect it will be in a upcoming release.

Re: ArchiCAD/Revit shootout proposal

Djordje — Sat, 13 Mar 2004 18:02:27 GMT

Scott wrote:
Special Snap Points? relative construction constraints? Omnipotent Magic Wand?

1. Special Snap Points - any existinfg linear element or the edge of a polygonal element is divided to given number of dicisions, or by lenght or distance, by the full lentght or the part defined bty two intersections

2. Relative construction constraints: Perpendicular, parallel, bisectrix, offset, multiple offset, and a free floating Special Snap Points tool

3. Magic Wand - can generate any polygonal element to any closed or almost closed outline (scloses the outline automatically) or trace any linear element along the polygon's perimeter. Also can be used for subtracting, joining, adding polygonal elements. The main culprit fora house in six clicks.

More info needed?

For detailed explanation with movies, find the Archimaster Web site (lost the link, sorry!)

Re: ArchiCAD/Revit shootout proposal

Scott Davis — Sat, 13 Mar 2004 18:39:28 GMT

I've noticed a few things that Revit is unable to do that we seem to take for granted

1. Special Snap Points - any existinfg linear element or the edge of a polygonal element is divided to given number of dicisions, or by lenght or distance, by the full lentght or the part defined bty two intersections

I think that Revit has its own way of defining the 'special snap points', but the concepts are similar. Curtain walls, in particular, divide by halves, thirds, quarters, etc,. or dimensions whether visible or not can be placed to control lengths of objects. For instance, I can place four windows in a wall, dimension to the center of each window, and set an 'equal' constraint. These windows will now remain eqidistant from each other. If I grab one and move it, the other react accordingly.

2. Relative construction constraints: Perpendicular, parallel, bisectrix, offset, multiple offset, and a free floating Special Snap Points tool

Revit has all of these, just with different terminology. Geometry 'snaps' to other geometry, or displays 'apparent' snaps with reference lines.

3. Magic Wand - can generate any polygonal element to any closed or almost closed outline (scloses the outline automatically) or trace any linear element along the polygon's perimeter. Also can be used for subtracting, joining, adding polygonal elements. The main culprit fora house in six clicks.

Revit tools react in the same way, its not magical. I can use the 'pick' tool to trace underlying DWG lines, or Revit geometry. TAB key while hovering over a line with the pick tool will select the chain of elements. The only thing missing is a 'close' option, although the program will highlight where the opening occurs, and a quick fillet tool will close the sketch. I expect a 'close' option to be added soon.

Re: ArchiCAD/Revit shootout proposal

Djordje — Sun, 14 Mar 2004 17:00:45 GMT

Scott wrote:
I think that Revit has its own way of defining the 'special snap points', but the concepts are similar.

It would be quite surprising if they were not 😉

The good thing about Special snap points is that they happen on the fly - you do NOT have to dimension or do any operation at all, just place the cursor on an edge and it is divided as set ... and, you can use them in conjuction with anything else - for example, start a wall from a third of a distance between a third of one wall and three fifiths of another ... I find this extremely useful, as I tend to set up the structural frame first, and then work in subdivisions, leaving the dimensioning for the final CD set.

Scott wrote:
For instance, I can place four windows in a wall, dimension to the center of each window, and set an 'equal' constraint. These windows will now remain eqidistant from each other. If I grab one and move it, the other react accordingly.

This is good behaviour; you already explained that it does not insist on relationships all the time. How easy it is to kill the links, especially late into a project (and restore them afterwards)? Does it ever choke the machine or get confused? I am probably too old fashioned to believe the machine too much ... to s.c.r.e.w up is human, but to REALLY s.c.r.e.w up you need a computer 😉 Murphy's law.

Can you place anything geometrically precisely somewhere without dimensioning?

Scott wrote:
Djordje wrote:
2. Relative construction constraints: Perpendicular, parallel, bisectrix, offset, multiple offset, and a free floating Special Snap Points tool
Revit has all of these, just with different terminology. Geometry 'snaps' to other geometry, or displays 'apparent' snaps with reference lines.

No reference lines needed at all (IMHO 😉. Does it also work in 3D views?

AFAIR you do have angle and co-ordinate locking? Last Revit I had the time to look at was 5 ...

Scott wrote:
Djordje wrote:
3. Magic Wand - can generate any polygonal element to any closed or almost closed outline (closes the outline automatically) or trace any linear element along the polygon's perimeter. Also can be used for subtracting, joining, adding polygonal elements. The main culprit fora house in six clicks.
Revit tools react in the same way, its not magical.

The name of the tool is Magic wand And the icon IS Magic wand!

Again, I would be surprised if you did not have something similar - polygon recognition is not unheard of

How is polygon editing in Revit (slabs, roofs, meshes, fills)? That is one of the OOH factors of anyone who starts on ArchiCAD IMHE.

It would be good if not a shootout, but a user meet could be set up. Like student exchange programs ...

Heck, India and Pakistan are playing cricket in Karachi!!!

Re: ArchiCAD/Revit shootout proposal

Scott Davis — Mon, 15 Mar 2004 00:02:10 GMT

How easy it is to kill the links, especially late into a project (and restore them afterwards)? Does it ever choke the machine or get confused?

It's very easy to kill links. Move an object, and a dialog will warn that it's constrained to another, with the ability to 'remove constraints.' If something is constrained by a dimension, just delete the dimension. I've never had it get confused or choke the machine.

Can you place anything geometrically precisely somewhere without dimensioning?

Yep, direct numerical entry is available. ie: start a wall, drag the direction you want, type the distance it needs to go. Also, Revit has "temp. dims." that only appear when placing or modifying objects. Select an object and temporary dimensions appear, tying to nearby objects. Click on a temp dim, change the number, and the geometry updates. Temp Dims can also be made 'permanent dimensions' by clicking on a control icon on the temp dim.

No reference lines needed at all (IMHO . Does it also work in 3D views?

Reference lines are the wrong terminology, and don't explain what I was talking about. Maybe I should call them Temporary Tracking Lines. As you hoover over the drawing area, actual and perceived snap points appear at your cursor, and the "tracking" lines appear to show the geometry the snap is associated with. For instance, you may be 20 feet from the nearest geometry, but a perceived snap between an arc'd wall and a straight wall across the model may appear at your cursor.

How is polygon editing in Revit (slabs, roofs, meshes, fills)?

Much of the solid geometry in Revit is based on a sketch. For instance, a roof is a sketch of the plan view of the roof, while the sketch lines themselves control roof slope, overhang, etc. These sketch lines can be drawn freely with any on the available line, arc, circle, ellipse, spline, etc. drawing tools, or I can use the Pick tool to pick the underlying geometry. In the case of the roof. I would pick the walls that support the roof. I can also use TAB as described before to select a chain of lines.

Re: ArchiCAD/Revit shootout proposal

Karl Ottenstein — Mon, 15 Mar 2004 00:32:00 GMT

Scott wrote:
Also, Revit has "temp. dims." that only appear when placing or modifying objects. Select an object and temporary dimensions appear, tying to nearby objects. Click on a temp dim, change the number, and the geometry updates. Temp Dims can also be made 'permanent dimensions' by clicking on a control icon on the temp dim.

Reference lines are the wrong terminology, and don't explain what I was talking about. Maybe I should call them Temporary Tracking Lines. As you hoover over the drawing area, actual and perceived snap points appear at your cursor, and the "tracking" lines appear to show the geometry the snap is associated with. For instance, you may be 20 feet from the nearest geometry, but a perceived snap between an arc'd wall and a straight wall across the model may appear at your cursor.

These are some of the things that immediately impressed me when demoing Revit. I wouldn't give up what we have in ArchiCAD ... but I would sure like to also have the fast, visual, user-friendly manipulation that these Revit features provide. You have to try it to appreciate it.

Karl

Re: ArchiCAD/Revit shootout proposal

Anonymous — Thu, 25 Mar 2004 10:56:25 GMT

what's B.I.M?

Re: ArchiCAD/Revit shootout proposal

Anonymous — Sun, 25 Apr 2004 05:17:28 GMT

Building Information Model

Re: ArchiCAD/Revit shootout proposal

stefan — Fri, 01 Oct 2004 07:14:12 GMT

And what about the shootout?

Re: ArchiCAD/Revit shootout proposal

Rakela Raul — Fri, 01 Oct 2004 13:55:39 GMT

yaaa, what about it......please include 'idecad'
from somewhere in europe

Re: ArchiCAD/Revit shootout proposal

Dwight — Fri, 01 Oct 2004 16:37:32 GMT

Boston was the home of the Shootout, and it petered out I believe because of the challenges of comparing applications in such a short time - and because AutoDesk wouldn't participate [obviously not...]

Certainly their Revit product puts them at the forefront - as I remember Vectorworks was tight behind ArchiCAD last time.....

So much depends on the team that goes......

Who volunteers? Experts only, now?

Re: ArchiCAD/Revit shootout proposal

Karl Ottenstein — Fri, 01 Oct 2004 17:07:07 GMT

Dwight wrote:
Who volunteers?

I'm up for being on the team, depending on where/when...

Karl

Re: ArchiCAD/Revit shootout proposal

Dwight — Fri, 01 Oct 2004 17:13:48 GMT

So that's two.
Perhaps Matthew could join us if he isn't too busy making ArchiCAD TALK postings.

So now, all we need is a sponsor.