topic Using paranthesis in schedules extremely slow in ArchiCAD 22 in Collaboration with other software

Using paranthesis in schedules extremely slow in ArchiCAD 22

PVBergkrantz — Thu, 07 Mar 2019 17:38:33 GMT

Hello. I recently migrated a project to AC22 and am having huge issues with schedules being slow. At first I thought it was just the file and something wrong or overly complex but after some trouble shooting and bug hunting I think I've narrowed down the problem, and it is recreatable in every file I try it with.

When doing a schedule, and setting the rules like below the time to load and display the schedule jumps from a few seconds to 7-8 minutes. This was not the case in AC21.

Type = Zones
( Zone category != Category1 &
Zone category != Category2)

By putting the same rules without the paranthesis it loads in a few seconds (though working without paranthesis is not always an option, especially when using or instead of and).

It also seems to get even worse if there are hotlinks present.

Re: Using paranthesis in schedules extremely slow in ArchiCAD 22

PVBergkrantz — Mon, 11 Mar 2019 13:58:16 GMT

A slight update on this:

- This only seems to be a problem if the criteria within parenthesis are related to zones. If you put say "home story name" it's still fast.

- This only seems to be a problem on migrated files from AC21, however I have not been able to confirm if this is due to the files being more complex with more objects, layouts, drawings etc. or if there is something specific about the migration that causes it.

- If I remove everything besides the zones in the file, it is fast again, however removing outer walls, objects, inner walls etc. doesn't seem to give much of a speed increase, only if I remove everything except the zones will it be fast.

-Also some speed increase is achieved if overlapping zones are removed. Then my test file goes from 95 seconds to 45.

Re: Using paranthesis in schedules extremely slow in ArchiCAD 22

Karl Ottenstein — Mon, 11 Mar 2019 16:56:30 GMT

PVBergkrantz wrote:
( Zone category != Category1 &
Zone category != Category2)

The behavior you report is indeed strange - the parentheses should not make a difference, zones or not.

But, in the example you gave above, the parentheses serve no purpose... unless you have an OR condition before/after for example.

What happens if you include each operation in parentheses like this:

( Zone category != Category1) &
(Zone category != Category2)

and then if you include the sub-parenthesized expression in overall parentheses:

(( Zone category != Category1) &
(Zone category != Category2))

Re: Using paranthesis in schedules extremely slow in ArchiCAD 22

PVBergkrantz — Tue, 12 Mar 2019 08:31:58 GMT

I agree, it is strange and should not make a difference. In this simplified example it doesn't even change the criteria like you said, since there's no OR, but still it takes longer. I tried both your suggestions but it's still slow. Around 70-80 seconds for each, compared to 1-2 without any parenthesis.

I've also been able to verify this slow down in another project by a coworker, created from scratch in AC22. It is not at the same level of complexity as mine, but adding the parenthesis makes the time to generate the schedule go from 4 seconds to 17, still an increase of over 400%. Something fishy is indeed going on.

Re: Using paranthesis in schedules extremely slow in ArchiCAD 22

Daniel Kovacs — Tue, 26 Mar 2019 08:56:57 GMT

Hi,

I couldn't reproduce this in a new AC22 file (but it is my understanding that neither could you). I have a few thoughts though:

I am not sure what you are trying to list here. If you set up the rules to list zones, which belong to a certain category AND another certain category, that will be an empty list, every zone can only belong to a single category (so at this point using brackets or not is not the question). What am I missing here?
Using a bracket can make a difference in the order the elements are filtered. without brackets archicad will filter for all the zones and then for zones that belong to category1, and then to zones that also belong to category2. I am not sure about how the algorithm works, but I think if you use the brackets, it may filter everything for belonging to category1 and then everything for category2 and then take everything that belongs to both, and then filter for zones and take everything that was filtered before and is also a zone. Maybe it calculates differently, but the point is that it probably requires more steps when used with brackets. Still, it shouldn't be that much longer, it is just food for thought.
If you only experience this with projects from AC21, maybe it is because the zones are using the AC21 version of the zone stamp object and that may slow things down. Maybe not, but it is worth to check I think.
Also, you could check whether it is faster if you use classifications instead of element type to filter for Zones?

Anyhow, if you are still having this issue, could you send me a PLA of a project that behaves this way so that I can take a look?

Thanks,

Re: Using paranthesis in schedules extremely slow in ArchiCAD 22

PVBergkrantz — Thu, 28 Mar 2019 08:45:08 GMT

The example list I made had the criteria "!= certain category", with "!=" meaning NOT EQUAL, sorry for not clarifying it more.

I agree it probably is because it calculates differently when there are parenthesis, in a much more inefficient way it seems. Though they must have made some change to this in AC22.

I was able to replicate it in a AC22 file started from scratch, but the difference was not as pronounced but I think that is because the model was not as complex. I did not have time to completely rebuild a house (over 20 stories for reference). When there are few objects it seems the calculations are fast enough to not notice a difference, but by putting in around 20 stories, toilets, kitchens, different types of zones overlapping, walls, windows etc the difference becomes more pronounced.

I also thought it might be something with the zone stamp object not migrating in a good way but since I tried it with original AC22 zones this does not seem to be the case.

I have opened a ticket with the graphisoft support and hope to hear back from them soon. Until then I'd be happy to send you a file to try with, but it's too large to upload here, around 20 MB.

Re: Using paranthesis in schedules extremely slow in ArchiCAD 22

Barry Kelly — Thu, 28 Mar 2019 08:50:06 GMT

PVBergkrantz wrote:
Until then I'd be happy to send you a file to try with, but it's too large to upload here, around 20 MB.

Use a file sharing utility like Dropbox or similar.
But don't post the link here if you don't want others to download it.
Private Mail the link to Daniel.

Barry.

Re: Using paranthesis in schedules extremely slow in ArchiCAD 22

Daniel Kovacs — Thu, 11 Apr 2019 12:33:33 GMT

PVBergkrantz wrote:
I have opened a ticket with the graphisoft support and hope to hear back from them soon. Until then I'd be happy to send you a file to try with, but it's too large to upload here, around 20 MB.

Hi,

I am sure support will sort it out then. When they get back to you, could you post the answer here? It would be useful in case someone runs into the same thing in the future.

Anyhow, if for some reason it doesn't pan out, let me know and I can still take a look at your PLA.

Regards,

Re: Using paranthesis in schedules extremely slow in ArchiCAD 22

Sebastian Monroe — Sat, 13 Apr 2019 09:02:08 GMT

Hi,

I am also having lengthy delays using the interactive schedule using an upgraded 21 file to 22. I am trying to use the 'RIGHT' function in the expression editor to take the 7 digits and use them in a keynote schedule. It is taking 20-25 minutes to create the schedule.

Unfortunately the result is " --- ".

Can anyone explain why this is happening.
Also I have used the 'does not contain' in the criteria and the elementID's with this information are not being removed from the list.

Please help.

Re: Using paranthesis in schedules extremely slow in ArchiCAD 22

Barry Kelly — Mon, 15 Apr 2019 00:52:15 GMT

Sebastian wrote:
Also I have used the 'does not contain' in the criteria and the elementID's with this information are not being removed from the list.

Try changing the "OR" to "AND".

Because you are using 'does not contain' as a filter, you must use 'and'.
If you were using 'does contain' or 'is' then you would use 'or'.

Barry.

Re: Using paranthesis in schedules extremely slow in ArchiCAD 22

PVBergkrantz — Wed, 10 Jul 2019 09:21:18 GMT

I've gotten a reply from Graphisoft concerning this and they confirm it is a bug and something they are working on to fix in the next update. They gave this recommendation as a workaround:

"There is something we can recommend the client to do for the time being until the issue is resolved.

1. Add a new Property, with Value definition: Expression
2. Add Parameters & Properties: Zone > Zone Category
3. Availability: All

If the client uses this as a criterion, the calculation speed will be significantly faster, since ARCHICAD will then calculate only with Zones rather than Zone Relations.

Unfortunately, we lose the Pop-up value choosing option for the criteria, so it needs to be considered whether it is worth the trouble to implement this workaround to speed up the schedule processing."

And I also made my own workaround by placing the criteria that would be in parenthesis FIRST instead of last, and then not having to use parenthesis at all.

Zone cat IS xxx OR
Zone cat IS XXX OR
...
Element type IS zone AND
Layer IS xxx AND
Hotlink source IS xxx

Though this only works in this specific case with one parenthesis. Otherwise their method might be better.

Re: Using paranthesis in schedules extremely slow in ArchiCAD 22

PVBergkrantz — Wed, 26 Aug 2020 11:32:04 GMT

This seems to have been solved in AC23.