topic Re: C4D role in the workflow in Collaboration with other software

C4D role in the workflow

Anonymous — Wed, 24 Oct 2007 15:06:11 GMT

For those who use C4D in the pipeline as a portal to the excellent rendering engines (AR2 and VRay), how much do you use C4D for modeling beyond what you've already done in AC? In other words, what, if any, modeling tasks are easier and faster to do in C4D than in AC? I've struggled a bit with the 3D profiler, and wonder if some of those detail shapes might not be better to do in C4D?

We currently use AC for the design development and const doc phase (traditional residential architecture), but have not yet migrated to cg renderings, which I want to do.

Re: C4D role in the workflow

Anonymous — Wed, 24 Oct 2007 17:25:50 GMT

I do not use C4D, but I use VRay. As a platform for VRay I use Max. So it's pretty much the same. I haven't heard of VRay for C4D - is there any?

In the recent years I found that I tend to model less things in Max, and much more in AC. For residential buildings it it 100% AC. Which means that either AC had become better or my projects- simpler! Max is and has always been difficult.

I use Max to remove items from the model in order to simplify it - door handles inside the building, some furniture I have forgotten to with 3D "on", back sides off floors, etc.

Actually I use Max to assemble scenes with different objects in different file formats. This is especially true for interior visualizations - 90% of the furniture in them is .3ds, .max or modelled by me. I have given up .3ds import in AC - it is rudimentary.

It's a pity I haven't designed a tent structure since my graduation!

Re: C4D role in the workflow

Anonymous — Wed, 24 Oct 2007 17:45:48 GMT

Kliment wrote: I do not use C4D, but I use VRay. As a platform for VRay I use Max. So it's pretty much the same. I haven't heard of VRay for C4D - is there any?

In the recent years I found that I tend to model less things in Max, and much more in AC. For residential buildings it it 100% AC. Which means that either AC had become better or my projects- simpler! Max is and has always been difficult.

I use Max to remove items from the model in order to simplify it - door handles inside the building, some furniture I have forgotten to with 3D "on", back sides off floors, etc.

Actually I use Max to assemble scenes with different objects in different file formats. This is especially true for interior visualizations - 90% of the furniture in them is .3ds, .max or modelled by me. I have given up .3ds import in AC - it is rudimentary.

It's a pity I haven't designed a tent structure since my graduation!

Josephus writes: Thx for the info....check out www.vrayforc4d.com/. So you use Max kind of like a "3D Photoshop". Wonder how C4D handles Max/3DS files?

Re: C4D role in the workflow

Anonymous — Wed, 24 Oct 2007 21:21:02 GMT

Joseph, go with Maxwell for Archicad.

Re: C4D role in the workflow

Rakela Raul — Wed, 24 Oct 2007 21:49:02 GMT

josephus,

workflow with archicad to replace profiler?? : i think you implied maxonform but same stuff... yes, you can model anything that you could with any ac model'g tool or addon but it will cost you 595 dollars in the US per seat !!! i think it is a great price though....personally i will buy it anytime now.... it seems impossible @ first but not for a long time......but not to replace profiler or aforma or encina or ac rotate, etc......im not sure cuz others responses if you were asking this or rendering with C4D which i dont have a clue....sorry

Re: C4D role in the workflow

Anonymous — Wed, 24 Oct 2007 22:09:07 GMT

Maxwell......that is a thought....I do have 2 licenses, the output potential is nothing short of fantastic...although I sold my four extra dual processor computers, so would need to be willing to wait.............. When I spent some time with it a while back to get acquainted with the interface, it felt cumbersome...had flashbacks of DOS programs. Thought getting the camera settings right was awkward.

I have been looking at the C4D demo...so far feels quite user friendly, and has the capability to do some (if not a lot of) modeling. Which brings me back to my original question, is anyone using C4D for modeling tasks in ADDITION to the archicad model, or just using it for a rendering portal? If the general (professional) consensus is that C4D is being used as a rendering portal only, then looking at Maxwell (again) might be a good idea.

Re: C4D role in the workflow

owen — Thu, 25 Oct 2007 00:58:01 GMT

C4D is really very powerful and i think user friendly. We use C4D mainly for rendering and animations, although we do have the MaxonForm add-on to model forms too complicated to do easily in ArchiCAD. We are also starting to look at this as another path to import stuff from Rhino (via C4D) rather than AC's 3DS import add-on (which is unstable and butchers the geometry most of the time). MaxonForm was broken for such a long time after AC10 (GS...) that we kind of stopped using it, but picking it up again now.

Not saying its great, but its the best of some bad options to get whatever you model back into ArchiCAD to document it.

On the rendering side the VRayforC4D plugin should be really good - waiting for them to release a demo (2-3 weeks as of email last night). Not to sure about Maxwell ... i have tried it out briefly but found it a little unfriendly and although the quality is great, the render times are just too long IMO .. although maybe that was a user problem

Re: C4D role in the workflow

Anonymous — Thu, 25 Oct 2007 02:37:35 GMT

Interesting to hear from all over the world

So Owen, is Maxonform a "must have" to bring C4D geometry back into AC? Is there a way to bring the new (C4D) geometry into AC and place it properly in the AC model without Maxonform?

VRay for C4D looks very enticing, indeed. I have pretty much given up on Maxwell after initially getting really excited about it.

Re: C4D role in the workflow

owen — Thu, 25 Oct 2007 09:03:21 GMT

Josephus wrote:
..is Maxonform a "must have" to bring C4D geometry back into AC? Is there a way to bring the new (C4D) geometry into AC and place it properly in the AC model without Maxonform?

Without Maxonform you can just save out a 3DS and import that to AC using the 3DS Import add-on. You will have to position the element manually, and the translation of the 3DS into GDL is pretty ordinary - its certainly not parametric.

Maxonform has a few advantages, workflow is basically:

1. Start Maxonform from within ArchiCAD. Will fire up Maxonform (application version) or full Cinema4D (add-on version) and your ArchiCAD model will appear ghosted in Maxonform/C4D.

2. Modify existing elements or create new elements, including via imports to C4D from other apps .. like Rhino

3. Send changes back to ArchiCAD. All your modified/new elements are saved as objects and placed in the ArchiCAD file in the corresponding location. The objects are also better scripted than via the 3DS add-on in that they include parameters to show the object cut at each storey level, have better 2D/3D selection points, etc. Still not parametric though so if you want to edit them - back to Maxonform you go.

Aside from workflow, I've also found it more stable than the 3DS add-on which has an unhealthy relationship with the GS Bug Reporter, and it also seems to do a slightly cleaner job of the geometry.

I think if you already have C4D then the Maxonform Add-On is almost a no-brainer .. its around AU$180 from memory (although that was a while back). The full Maxonform application (essentially C4D Lite) was around AU$7-800 ... but i'm pretty sure you can only use it for modeling - no animation functions, rendering etc. I would weigh this and its cost up against buying a full Cinema license you can Network render with, etc

Not sure if they are available but i would try and get a demo from your reseller

Re: C4D role in the workflow

Anonymous — Thu, 25 Oct 2007 12:35:22 GMT

owen wrote:
MaxonForm was broken for such a long time after AC10 (GS...) that we kind of stopped using it, but picking it up again now.

Not saying its great, but its the best of some bad options to get whatever you model back into ArchiCAD to document it.

Owen, thx for your last reply. What you mentioned in your first post worried me some....I really don't need something that is "broken".

The concept you describe sounds really great and makes C4D appear like the app of choice with AC. So is Maxonform working fine now with ACv11?

I do want to take a look at Modo before moving forward w/C4D....was VERY impressed with what one person did in his (first?) day and night...see post by Alberto Ezzy http://www.cgarchitect.com/vb/24962-first-archviz-modo.html

Re: C4D role in the workflow

owen — Fri, 26 Oct 2007 00:33:10 GMT

I should have been more specific in my broken comment. Basically Graphisoft took an unnacceptably long time to release an update to Maxonform so it would work on the Intel Macs .. it was a painful process. Not a PC issue though.

Aside from the delay in the Mactel version, another issue is that Maxonform is still based on Cinema 4D R9.6 ... although R10.x has been with us for a long time and we now have 10.5. So if you rely on interfacing to your own full Cinema app then you cannot upgrade to R10 .. or if you do Maxonform will no longer work.

Graphisoft had promised an update to R10 due end of last month... no sign yet.

a few more threads on the subject:

Maxonform for AC10

Maxonform again...are u really using it..and how

Archicad 11 and "curved" organic shapes for buildi

WHEN IS GRID TOOL COMING??? Thread went off-topic into Maxonform, but the original subject of the Grid Tool is another telling tale of Graphisofts ability to handle their own Add-Ons..

Any news on MaxonForm for ArchiCAD11 ?

Re: C4D role in the workflow

Anonymous — Fri, 26 Oct 2007 01:03:07 GMT

Thank you Owen for your time and helpful insight...esp regarding the very important Maxonform bridge.

Right now beginning to look at Modo....looks VERY impressive, so will download demo of that and see how that might go.

I think that may fit well in my workflow concept, which is freehand sketching (ah yes, the creative hand still lives!)>Photoshop tweaks and presentation (both plans and elevation)>full 3D design development virtual model (Modo or Archicad/C4D...the AC/C4D combo would be about 5X to 6X the cost of Modo)>Final Presentation renderings (Modo or C4D/AR2/VRay>Autocad (LT?) for construction docs (if required).

Re: C4D role in the workflow

Anonymous — Sat, 27 Oct 2007 19:11:28 GMT

Decided today to go with C4D and VRay. I've been working a little with the demo and like it. Got great feedback on C4D forum confirming "rock solid" stability...very important for me, whereas many Modo users complaining of crashes, like every few minutes. Probably part of being a new software developer.....C4D/VRay will give me the quality render I've been looking for, that with the stability makes it a winner for me. Besides that with the Maxonform bridge to Archicad makes it even more useful for me.

Re: C4D role in the workflow

Eduardo Rolon — Sun, 28 Oct 2007 00:46:45 GMT

I found one bug using the saveas C4D plugin for AC and VrayC4 and it is that if you rotate the model and turn one of the objects off then C4 will crash the work around is to turn off the material not the mesh. POsted that on the VrayC4 forums but apparently nobody uses AC over there.

All in all I am happy with the purchase. Fast, reliable and easy to start to figure out.

Re: C4D role in the workflow

Anonymous — Wed, 07 Nov 2007 21:53:59 GMT

I have found the posts in this thread very informative so far and have a few additional questions.
I currently have the Maxonform addon for AC11. I was starting to get into Maxonform for AC10 shortly before the upgrade to AC11, then was disappointed by the delayed release for AC11.
We have recently contracted out some of our rendering needs, but I have been considering the purchase of C4D so that we can keep that in-house + have full functionality of other tools C4D offers. For example, I have been exploring the Engineer Edition of C4D because of the import capabilities from other design programs. I work with engineers who do modeling in programs other than AC or C4D and I want to import their geometries directly through the Okino translator included in C4D engineer edition then bring these geometries into AC

If I understand correctly working in C4D 10.5 I would need to bring any newly modeled objects into AC11 through the Maxonform bridge. There is not a current plugin to go directly from C4D10.5 to AC - Is that correct?

Having used MaxonForm a bit I know that I can toggle between programs when I need to modify the shapes created in MF. Does the plugin with the older version of C4d allow a similar type of workflow where you can toggle between programs within AC?

On a more general note - Is anyone using freeform modeling and then working directly with a structural engineer for the analysis of the structures? what challenges are you finding? what programs are the engineers using? are you converting things through IFC or through another translator?

I appreciate any responses or ideas anyone has to offer here.

Re: C4D role in the workflow

Rakela Raul — Wed, 07 Nov 2007 22:16:45 GMT

If I understand correctly working in C4D 10.5 I would need to bring any newly modeled objects into AC11 through the Maxonform bridge. There is not a current plugin to go directly from C4D10.5 to AC - Is that correct?

there is a plugin to export from c4d (version dont know) to ac 10 and 11 and it was just postd it here somewhere in the forum

http://archicad-talk.graphisoft.com/viewtopic.php?t=19460

Having used MaxonForm a bit I know that I can toggle between programs when I need to modify the shapes created in MF. Does the plugin with the older version of C4d allow a similar type of workflow where you can toggle between programs within AC?

i dont believe you can have the same workflow between C4D and AC as you do with MF and AC....C4D can export to AC and AC will export to C4D thru 3DS i think

On a more general note - Is anyone using freeform modeling and then working directly with a structural engineer for the analysis of the structures? what challenges are you finding? what programs are the engineers using? are you converting things through IFC or through another translator?

i would like to know this also

Re: C4D role in the workflow

owen — Wed, 07 Nov 2007 23:36:18 GMT

The plugin posted is just to export the ArchiCAD model to Cinema4D (as an .ac4d file). This is part of the Architecture Exchange package which comes as part of the Cinema4D Architecture Bundle (inc. Advanced Render, Sketch & Toon).. it is one way only (AC>C4D) but basically allows you to update your ArchiCAD model geometry in C4D without having to remap materials you have applied by associating C4D materials to ArchiCAD materials. Very handy for setting up a template with placeholder objects with premapped materials to be replaced by an ArchiCAD model.

To get model geometry back from C4D into AC there are only 2 ways I know of .. the Maxonform plugin and the 3DS Import plugin. If you are on Cinema R10.5 then you are left with 3DS ... Graphisoft had said they would update the Maxonform plugin to R10 (going on 3 months overdue) but never replied as to wether or not it would work with R10.5 in the announcement

So who knows .. The fact that GS cannot/will not even answer a simple question like that speaks volumes about their 'customer service' attitude. If we are going to have to wait months and months for something, at least tell us so instead of barring the doors to re-emerge 4-5 months later saying 'ta da! its here .. rejoice!. Hey .. Whats with the pitch forks guys? What do you mean its out of date already?'

gee i really have a bee in my bonnet about this one don't i ..

Re: C4D role in the workflow

owen — Wed, 07 Nov 2007 23:43:56 GMT

ejrolon wrote:
I found one bug using the saveas C4D plugin for AC and VrayC4 and it is that if you rotate the model and turn one of the objects off then C4 will crash the work around is to turn off the material not the mesh. POsted that on the VrayC4 forums but apparently nobody uses AC over there.

All in all I am happy with the purchase. Fast, reliable and easy to start to figure out.

I am keen to get my hands on a demo - have been told there will be one available with the 1.1 update in a week or so.

Aside from the quality (which i understand is excellent) how do the render times compare to those using AR Radiosity?

Re: C4D role in the workflow

Eduardo Rolon — Thu, 08 Nov 2007 02:34:34 GMT

It is not even funny… 30-50% off and no splotches (technical term for the dirty circular shadows due to not having enough GI samples)

Re: C4D role in the workflow

owen — Thu, 08 Nov 2007 02:59:14 GMT

nice

and i'm all too familiar with those splotches ...