topic Re: To ArchiCad or not to ArchiCad, that is the question.... in Collaboration with other software

To ArchiCad or not to ArchiCad, that is the question....

Anonymous — Wed, 04 May 2005 03:32:47 GMT

OK, here's my problem and I would greatly appreciate your input (as non-biased as possible please). I am an architect setting up an in-house design studio within a remodeler/design-builder. I have used many different 2d CAD programs at a very advanced level over the years for several architecture firms and remodelers and now must recommend a CAD program for the new office. The choice, as I see it, is between ArchiCad and Revit. I have been evaluating both programs on my computer and I see the potential of both programs and really can't decide. While I am a novice (at best) in each program here's what I see good and bad in both programs so far.

Revit:
1. Great intuitive interface with easy to use snaps, ortho, and tentative snaps.
2. Very good library of parts right out of the box and more can be found online.
3. Temporary dimension tool is fantastic.
4. Poor/slow rendering capabilities.
5. Not great tools (not that bad either) for making CD's but seems to be making an effort here.
6. Subscription prices that are absurd. Not only do you have to buy the product once but over and over again.
7. Good: has that behemoth Autodesk backing the product.
8 Bad: has that behemoth Autodesk backing the product.

ArchiCAD:
1. Very sophisticated and powerful selection of tools.
2. Line weight control to the Nth degree, a great plus. I am extremely critical of CAD drawings that read flat, whether they be Presentation dwgs or CD's.
3. Very good rendering and the Sketch rendering function (a Photoshop like rendering tool) can be very useful for quick looks that a remodeling client can relate to.
4. Easy to view and modify library parts.
5. Not enough library parts from Graphisoft and/or vendors..
6. Can't just point and click when drawing. You must enter "shift + R" before every co-ordinate entry. This drives me crazy.
7. No offset command that functions as one would expect (a la AutoCAD). This also drives me crazy.I have no ides how one details without a drop dead simple offset tool. I guess I'd have to learn.
8. No subscription fee (at least not yet).

The list could go on and on for either product. I think if I could combine the ease of Revit and it's snaps and temporary dimensions with ArchiCad's CD detailing tools (and line weight control), library modification tools, and rendering capabilities I'd be set. But alas, I can't.

So my question is what do you think is ArchiCad's's single greatest asset (please don't list CD set co-ordination as they both are very good at this) and what is it's greatest weakness. Be truthful here. I would really appreciate your input. I think I will do well with either product but would be interested to know what it is that the typical user loves/hates.

I'll try listing this in a Revit forum as well....

Thanks,

Dean

Re: To ArchiCad or not to ArchiCad, that is the question....

Steve Jepson — Wed, 04 May 2005 07:19:23 GMT

Hitiachi or Senco ?
DeWalt or Milwaukee?
Tosiba or Sony?
Coke or Pepsi?
Plumb or Estwing?
Dell or HP?
Mac or PC?
MJB or Folgers?
Hershys' or Nestle?
CAD or by hand?
Rawlings or Wilson?
Titleist or MaxFli ?
Nike or Adidas?
Office Max or Office Depot?
WinZip or Stuffit?
Budweiser or Coors?
Ruffels or Lays?
ArchiCAD or Revit?

Re: To ArchiCad or not to ArchiCad, that is the question....

stefan — Wed, 04 May 2005 08:49:28 GMT

There is no definitive answer...

I chose ArchiCAD while Revit was not available. I have Revit now as well (a student version) but still have more experience in ArchiCAD.

What I lack in ArchiCAD is a more direct 3D interface (3d-snapping, drawing lines in 3D etc...). That works better even in AutoCAD.

Revit is superior on many parts, especially with the coordination of the building model.
I never saw very good Accurender images from Revit.

I'm a programmer, so I don't fear GDL. I know I can "program" any library element I could possibly want and GDL is not that hard, but it is a big step for most ArchiCAD users. There are tons and tons of ArchiCAD objects available (free and commercial). And one library element can become an unlimited amount of variations.

ArchiCAD works OK with DWG, but I guess Revit has an advantage here (I suggest going for the Revit Series, when you would choose Revit, since it also contains AutoCAD).

I like the visual output I get from ArchiCAD:
- hatched hidden line perspectives, including shadows, directly from the
3D-model.
- clean intersections: I don't draw 2D-details before construction documentation: I make sure that the ArchiCAD 3d-model is complete, so that a section is completely generated from the model. That said, small errors can sometimes be solved quickly in 2D that would take to much work in 3D.

I guess Revit would perform similar...

Difficult decision. No complete answer. Either one will be a good solution, though. Avoid ADT 😉

Re: To ArchiCad or not to ArchiCad, that is the question....

Ben Odonnell — Wed, 04 May 2005 09:55:04 GMT

Stefan,

stefan wrote:
ArchiCAD works OK with DWG, but I guess Revit has an advantage here (I suggest going for the Revit Series, when you would choose Revit, since it also contains AutoCAD).

Whilst I agree with 99% of the thing you write in this forum, I have to disagree with you on this one.

The DWG converting from ArchiCAD/Plotmaker is not ok it is in fact fantastic. You have so much control over your output to DWG.

Here in Sweden, I'm sure it's the same in other countries, we have very stringent rules about saving out to DWG. It has to be to a certain standard, the standard includes a whole list of layers, line types, fonts etc etc, that one must convert till and follow.

Now I'm no revit expert, but is it so that Revit doesn't use layers?

Please tell me how one dose a layer-->layer conversion from Revit?
I see this as a problem, e.g I have a wall in Revit that is going to be demolished and is has a dashed dot line type, how do I convert this if I'm using "BYLAYER" in AutoCAD?

So for me it's very hard to understand how one does a layer-->layer conversion when you don't have any layers to convert from the start. The way I understand it is that one has to convert each family (Wall,slab etc), individually(Pleas correct me if I'm wrong)

You stated that when you buy Revit, AutoCAD is included, why? Is it because you can't do working drawings/details in Revit?

How do you save out a model and then a paper space drawing from Revit?

From what I have seen of Revit's DWG compatibility, ArchiCAD blows this thing out of the water.

Cheers.
Ben

Re: To ArchiCad or not to ArchiCad, that is the question....

stefan — Wed, 04 May 2005 11:52:56 GMT

I'm not Scott, but here it goes:

Ben wrote:
Now I'm no revit expert, but is it so that Revit doesn't use layers?

Revit doesn't use layers, but uses layer-conversion schemes while exporting to DWG.
Objects use colors and other settings "by layer".

Ben wrote:
You stated that when you buy Revit, AutoCAD is included, why? Is it because you can't do working drawings/details in Revit?

AutoCAD is still a major sales advantage to convince people to buy Revit. You can do full construction drawing including details in Revit alone. In fact, I even saw 2D-details adapt to adjustments in the 3D-model, by the connection capabilities of Revit. Pretty impressive.

Ben wrote:
How do you save out a model and then a paper space drawing from Revit?

You do this from a Revit Sheet. Layout is automatically created, including viewports and the full drawings are included in the model space. Exactly what one would expect...
The model space is actually an XReffed drawing, that is saved seperately. But with the Edit-in-place in AutoCAD this works like it should.

I leave other comments to Scott 😉

Re: To ArchiCad or not to ArchiCad, that is the question....

Rakela Raul — Wed, 04 May 2005 12:16:28 GMT

very difficult question for people with expertise only in archicad, unless scott is also proficient in archicad by now !!

dean, a lot to do with taste also!!

Re: To ArchiCad or not to ArchiCad, that is the question....

Richard Morrison — Wed, 04 May 2005 15:24:36 GMT

Dean:

Glad I'm not making a choice myself, but a few items in your pros/cons list can be addressed. The new Cigraph add-on, ArchiRuler, fixes the offset problem, as well as the "Shift-R" problem.

One of the reasons I keep coming back to AC is that the extent of available libraries of realistic objects is HUGE compared to REVIT. Have you checked Objects Online, for example? I have not seen commercially available libraries for REVIT like the D3 SmartParts, for example. Maybe they exist, just haven't seen them.

Re: To ArchiCad or not to ArchiCad, that is the question....

Scott Davis — Wed, 04 May 2005 21:59:10 GMT

stefan wrote:
I leave other comments to Scott 😉

Stefan, I'll leave this one to you guys...you are covering it quite well! No ArchiCAD expertise yet....too involved in Revit and projects!

I will say that Revit does not "automatically" come with AutoCAD, it's a choice. You can buy Revit Building, or buy Revit Building Series....why get AutoCAD with Revit? Because almost EVERYTHING drawn up until just a couple years ago was DWG. Makes it easier for a firm to transistion to Revit.

Wouldn't AC users like a copy of AutoCAD to help translate consultant files, details downloaded off the internet, legacy drawings, etc?

Re: To ArchiCad or not to ArchiCad, that is the question....

Rakela Raul — Thu, 05 May 2005 01:36:14 GMT

Wouldn't AC users like a copy of AutoCAD to help translate consultant files, details downloaded off the internet, legacy drawings, etc

i think the response is positive, but negative if you have microstation which speaks either language (dwg+dgn)

Re: To ArchiCad or not to ArchiCad, that is the question....

Scott Davis — Thu, 05 May 2005 06:06:07 GMT

yeah, revit speaks DGN, too, but I don't need a copy of microstation!

Re: To ArchiCad or not to ArchiCad, that is the question....

__archiben — Thu, 05 May 2005 08:54:06 GMT

Scott wrote:
Wouldn't AC users like a copy of AutoCAD to help translate consultant files, details downloaded off the internet, legacy drawings, etc?

historically, yes. but with AC9? i see no need at all to have a version of autocad around . . . of course, this does rely on your consultants being able to generate you a template file (most of which can't, but that ain't AC's problem )

~/archiben

Re: To ArchiCad or not to ArchiCad, that is the question....

Rakela Raul — Thu, 05 May 2005 09:31:10 GMT

yeah, revit speaks DGN, too,

i didnt know that in revit you can do your work in either format (dgn or revit format) i liked that..will check that out cuz could be great for ms users..thx

Re: To ArchiCad or not to ArchiCad, that is the question....

Djordje — Fri, 06 May 2005 06:57:05 GMT

One thing to consider for the future: IFC.

ArchiCAD is fully IFC 2.0 compliant. For the time being, Revit can only write IFC. The implementation on the ArchiCAD side is light years ahead.

Arguably this will become the file exchange standard; see for example the story on Singapore governement and their IFC implementation. http://www.graphisoft.com/company/press_zone/ac_ifc_2005.html

Also, for the library part availability: granted that the numbers should be greater for ArchiCAD, as it is around for some 20odd years, the sheer numbers are on its side. Browse down to Tips&Tricks, and see the links to free GDL sites.

As you are in the US, the international compliance does not bother you much.

Re: To ArchiCad or not to ArchiCad, that is the question....

Scott Davis — Fri, 06 May 2005 17:22:11 GMT

Djordje wrote:
The implementation on the ArchiCAD side is light years ahead.

Maybe a year or two ahead, but I wouldn't call it 'light years' ahead! In any case, the fact that Revit is partially there is a step in the right direction for everyone. Shows Autodesk's commitment to IFC, which one can argue has been lacking in the past. With Autodesk on board wth IFC, it should help the industry at large to move closer to the goals of the IAI. I expect 'light years' to become milliseconds over the next year....

Djordje wrote:
granted that the numbers should be greater for ArchiCAD, as it is around for some 20 odd years.

See my point about the gap rapidly closing? In many aspects, gap has been opened in the other direction....AC is now in the catch-up role.

Re: To ArchiCad or not to ArchiCad, that is the question....

Anonymous — Fri, 06 May 2005 17:43:00 GMT

Archicad is better because runs in a MAC
Revit does not run on a MAC

Re: To ArchiCad or not to ArchiCad, that is the question....

Ben Odonnell — Fri, 06 May 2005 18:29:57 GMT

Scott wrote:
AC is now in the catch-up role.

Now that is a big call, please enlighten us.
I agree totally, Revit looks very spunky from the out side. But it still has fundamental problems, please don't get me wrong I am not saying that ArchiCAD is 100% problem free, but to say that ArchiCAD is now lagging behind, is well beyond me.

Revit has no teamwork. How do you have multiple users working on a the same project? I have seen a humorous attempt at a teamwork like solution. The workset, look at the name, workSET it's not team working.

Stefan, thank you for going to the trouble of explaining about DWG conversion, but I know from first hand experience that is simply not that easy, it is a know fact, that it is difficult to get "Usable" DWGs out of Revit easily.

How does Revit handel large scale projects now? I know it has been a problem in the past, does Revit have a project under it's belt like the Eureka Towers project in Melbourne, Australia?

How is backwards compatibility? Can you save a Revit 8 project to 7 or 6.1?
Lets face it, not every one upgrades straight away.

Does Revit have a GDL counter part? There are simply thousands of objects out there, ok Revit has objects, but are they as intelligent as GDL, if so, the objects that I have seen from Revit are much larger in size, therefore slowing down the whole project.

Finally, is Revit as open as ArchiCAD? Does it have an open API? I mean lets admit it if AutoCAD wasn't as open as it is, it would never have been as big or successful as it is today.

Scott, pleas don't misunderstand me, I'm not trying to duke it out with you, I just find it hard to belive, at the same time very ballsy, to say that ArchiCAD is now playing catch up with a program which is still in it's infancy, compered to ArchiCAD.

Cheers.
Ben

Re: To ArchiCad or not to ArchiCad, that is the question....

Scott Davis — Fri, 06 May 2005 21:06:25 GMT

Adalbert wrote:
Archicad is better because runs in a MAC
Revit does not run on a MAC

oh no....here we go! The old mac vs PC debate.....

Re: To ArchiCad or not to ArchiCad, that is the question....

Scott Davis — Fri, 06 May 2005 21:40:41 GMT

Ben, I'm not trying to turn this into an argument either....just answering your questions. I think Revit is much father along than you have seen/have been told.

Ben wrote:
Revit has no teamwork. How do you have multiple users working on a the same project? I have seen a humorous attempt at a teamwork like solution. The workset, look at the name, workSET it's not team working.

Revit has Worksets. In simple terms, there is a central file, and users 'check in' and 'check out' portions of the model to work on. these Woksets are user defnable. I can check out "shell and core" while user "B" checks out "interior partitions". Both of us can work on these parts simulatneously. When I get done, I "Save to Central" which both pushes my changes up to the Central file, and pulls other changes that others have made to my local file. Revit also has element borrowing, where if I have Workset A, but need something from Workset B that you have open for editing, I can "borrow" that element from your workset, and then give it back to you. This is total teamwork.

Ben wrote:
Stefan, thank you for going to the trouble of explaining about DWG conversion, but I know from first hand experience that is simply not that easy, it is a know fact, that it is difficult to get "Usable" DWGs out of Revit easily.

How is it difficult? File>Export>DWG. Is there 'clean up'? Only if you need to clean up concurrent lines that can occur, because a wall and window header may be colinear. If you are going to Xref the DWG into another file, then there really is no clean-up necessary.

Ben wrote:
How does Revit handel large scale projects now? I know it has been a problem in the past, does Revit have a project under it's belt like the Eureka Towers project in Melbourne, Australia?

SOM New York is designing the entire World Trade Center Freedom Tower in Revit, including Structural and MEP. Is that large enough at 1776 feet tall?

Ben wrote:
How is backwards compatibility? Can you save a Revit 8 project to 7 or 6.1? Lets face it, not every one upgrades straight away.

No, it's not backwards compatible. Every Revit seat is on subscription. (if you choose to continue the subscription) So nearly everyone updates every release as soon as it comes out.

Ben wrote:
Does Revit have a GDL counter part? There are simply thousands of objects out there, ok Revit has objects, but are they as intelligent as GDL, if so, the objects that I have seen from Revit are much larger in size, therefore slowing down the whole project.

Yes, they are as intelligent, and require no code to create. Now, I understand you don't have to know GDL to create AC content, but it sure helps, right? Every object is Revit is created in a graphical interface. There was a user here once that swore I couldn't make a parametric array in Revit. Well, you can. And much more...conditional formulas can be used as well as almost any mathmatical expression. A window family can add muntins as the size of the window increases. I can have one door family, with multiple panel options and multiple hardware options. Each of these configurations can be scheduled. I can have a half-glass panel with Lever hardware, and a solid panel door with panic hardware in the same family. I can make a change to the Hardware type in the schedule, and my model will reflect the change. Do they slow down the project? Not really. Each instance of the family in the model is just a representation of the loaded family. If I load a door and place one, or 100, the file size does not change significantly.

Ben wrote:
Finally, is Revit as open as ArchiCAD? Does it have an open API? I mean lets admit it if AutoCAD wasn't as open as it is, it would never have been as big or successful as it is today.

Revit 8.0 (just released) has an API available. I'm sure we'll see some creative uses in the near future, including one from E-specs in which a change in a specification could actually change the model.

Ben wrote:
I just find it hard to belive, at the same time very ballsy, to say that ArchiCAD is now playing catch up with a program which is still in it's infancy, compered to ArchiCAD.

I understand your reservation, but I believe its true. Don't get me wrong, it's not the entire program. Both have their strengths and weaknesses. I just think Revit has progressed so rapidly in a very short time, and that it's underlying parametric change engine foundation of 100% bi-directional associativity gives it an edge over ArchiCAD. I also believe that ArchiCAD's longer life is not necessarily an asset. It's built on older technology, and for 20 years of history, should be developed far beyond it's current limitations.

Re: To ArchiCad or not to ArchiCad, that is the question....

Anonymous — Fri, 06 May 2005 22:53:45 GMT

ArchiCAD is sill a better product than Revit.
But, Revit was bought by Autodesk, the giant company.
And that will make the difference in the future.

I´m sure Autodesk tried to buy ArchiCAD. They bought Revit.

small Graphisoft can´t with giant Autodesk

Ricardo

Re: To ArchiCad or not to ArchiCad, that is the question....

Scott Davis — Fri, 06 May 2005 23:19:01 GMT

Actually, Graphisoft approached Revit Technology Corporation (RTC - Revit before Autodesk bought them) and tried to get RTC to purchase Graphisoft. The deal didn't work out. Soon after, Autodesk started negotiations with RTC and evenetually bought it.

My understanding - Autodesk never pursued Graphisoft.