topic Re: AC 12: Can a laptop still work in place of a 8 core mach in Installation & update

AC 12: Can a laptop still work in place of a 8 core machine?

Chazz — Tue, 17 Jun 2008 15:40:18 GMT

Decisions, desisions. I'm debating between an MacBook Pro 2.6ghz 17" and a new Mac Pro 8 core.

Maybe some of the beta testers can speak to this: Is the speed improvement in AC 12 on an 8 core beast really 4x better than on a laptop with just a single 2 core processor? I really love the portability of my current MacBook Pro but I spend a heck of a lot of time waiting for Atlantis and Archicad. Any input appreciated.

Re: AC 12: Can a laptop still work in place of a 8 core mach

Chris Phillips — Tue, 17 Jun 2008 15:48:10 GMT

OK, you are just trying to make me jealous! Yes it is worth it!

Chris Phillips

Re: AC 12: Can a laptop still work in place of a 8 core mach

Rick Thompson — Tue, 17 Jun 2008 16:11:34 GMT

I haven't loaded it on my laptop, so can't answer that directly, but comparing 11 to 12 on a 2.8 Quad core there is a nice speed bump, but I work on small file size plns. Personally, I wish I had had some inclination AC would have been multi capable when I bought the Quad the first of this year and I would have gone "all the way". So, I can't imagines wanting to use anything less than you can get your hands on. The biggest difference in speed was going from my old 2 core 2.0 to the newer quad. The difference was bigger there than from 11 to 12.. for me. A pln opening went from 30 sec to 20 sec with 11 to 12. It went from something like 1.5 min to 30 sec from the old 2.0 - 2 core to the faster 2.8 quad.

Re: AC 12: Can a laptop still work in place of a 8 core mach

Rick Thompson — Tue, 17 Jun 2008 16:17:46 GMT

ps.. the new dimensioning ablities alone is worth the upgrade:)

Re: AC 12: Can a laptop still work in place of a 8 core mach

Chazz — Tue, 17 Jun 2008 16:18:35 GMT

Chris wrote:
OK, you are just trying to make me jealous! Yes it is worth it!Chris Phillips

But the cost is not really the issue. You can get a decent 8 core desktop for the same $ as a well appointed MBP. The tradeoff for me is speed Vs the loss in portability. I move around a lot (and love to be able to bike with my files). My question is what IS that tradeoff? 1.5X? 2X? 4X?

At the World Wide Developers Conference (WWDC) this month, Apple anounced the next version of the OS, Mac OS 10.6 Snow Leopard which will focus on multiprocessor support. Implicit in this decision is the fact that processors are not getting much faster and the key to speed improvements in future is parallelism.

Parallelism appears to be the name of the game going forward and it makes me wonder if doing architecture is just not something that one will do on a laptop in the near future (it certainly was not in the distant past).

Re: AC 12: Can a laptop still work in place of a 8 core mach

Eduardo Rolon — Tue, 17 Jun 2008 16:20:10 GMT

Runs fine on a Macbook Pro 15", no regrets. Though I am buying a 8core next month.

Re: AC 12: Can a laptop still work in place of a 8 core mach

Karl Ottenstein — Tue, 17 Jun 2008 16:40:36 GMT

Chazz wrote:
Decisions, desisions. I'm debating between an MacBook Pro 2.6ghz 17" and a new Mac Pro 8 core.

Maybe some of the beta testers can speak to this: Is the speed improvement in AC 12 on an 8 core beast really 4x better than on a laptop with just a single 2 core processor? I really love the portability of my current MacBook Pro but I spend a heck of a lot of time waiting for Atlantis and Archicad. Any input appreciated.

As Rick mentions, the speed improvement depends on the size of your files. It feels zippier with any file, but we're talking seconds with smaller files vs perhaps minutes on huge commercial projects. You'll not notice much change in performance once you are in a view, but will notice that sections, elevations and 3D open much faster than before.

If you use Artlantis and other multithreaded apps, then all the more reason for as many cores as possible. Using Artlantis, even in preview mode, all cores will run 'hot' and you'll really notice the improvement that each additional core/processor gives.

I switched to the Mac Pro 8 core this spring, but still have a single core XP laptop. Feels very slow in comparison!

Since you prefer portable, the rumors are that the Macbook Pro will have a new 4 core intel chip this fall...ditto iMac... but who knows... If you get a dual core Macbook Pro now... there will surely be a resale market for it when the quad cores arrive...

Karl

Re: AC 12: Can a laptop still work in place of a 8 core mach

Chazz — Tue, 17 Jun 2008 16:59:01 GMT

Karl wrote:
Since you prefer portable, the rumors are that the Macbook Pro will have a new 4 core intel chip this fall...ditto iMac... but who knows... If you get a dual core Macbook Pro now... there will surely be a resale market for it when the quad cores arrive...

See, this is want I want to hear. Thanks Karl (I'm a follower of mac rumors but had not heard this one). The truth is I'd buy a MBP with a 1 hour battery life if it had a multicore brain. I never work without the thing plugged in.

My files are typically huge so speed is really an issue, hence the octi-core lust. But no one at my company uses a desktop. We are all mobile, all the time and the peer pressure is considerable.

Re: AC 12: Can a laptop still work in place of a 8 core mach

Dwight — Tue, 17 Jun 2008 17:50:57 GMT

Chazz wrote:
the peer pressure is considerable.

Get the speed: Be the rock they all flit around.

Re: AC 12: Can a laptop still work in place of a 8 core mach

Thomas Holm — Tue, 17 Jun 2008 17:58:01 GMT

Chazz,

i've been testing AC12 on my late 2006 15" MBP all the time. It feels much faster than AC11, but my projects are typically small. I feel more pain in ArtlantisRender, where 4x more cores would be really useful.

I guess with large files, you'll want the speed more. If you're prepared to wait, Intel's upcoming Nehalem will give you 8 or more cores in a laptop. But that's next year, or more

Re: AC 12: Can a laptop still work in place of a 8 core mach

Dwight — Tue, 17 Jun 2008 18:05:02 GMT

"Nehalem"

They are using biblical names now?

Re: AC 12: Can a laptop still work in place of a 8 core mach

Karl Ottenstein — Tue, 17 Jun 2008 21:20:33 GMT

Chazz wrote:
Thanks Karl (I'm a follower of mac rumors but had not heard this one).

Well, I may be reading too much between the lines. But, MacRumors had linked to this article:
http://www.electronista.com/articles/07/10/15/intel.4.core.mobile.demo/
a while back ... and I think I heard rumblings about this 4 core chip elsewhere too. Another article talked about the new mobile Penryn chips but did not specify core-count....

Cheers,
Karl

Re: AC 12: Can a laptop still work in place of a 8 core mach

Thomas Holm — Wed, 18 Jun 2008 06:22:24 GMT

Dwight wrote:
"Nehalem"

They are using biblical names now?

Yep.

http://www.digitimes.com/systems/a20080612VL201.html

http://arstechnica.com/articles/paedia/cpu/what-you-need-to-know-about-nehalem.ars

Re: AC 12: Can a laptop still work in place of a 8 core mach

__archiben — Wed, 18 Jun 2008 07:49:15 GMT

ok... i ran some tests. not quite 8-core, but there's at least an idea here of what's going on:

i have AC11 and an AC12 release candidate installed on my mac book pro and mac pro. the specs are as follows:

mac book pro (dual): 2.16GHz Core Duo, 2GB RAM, 256MB ATI X1600 graphics. OSX 10.5.3.
mac pro (quad): 2x2.66GHz Dual Core Xeon, 5GB RAM, 512MB ATI X1900 graphics. OSX 10.4.11

so it's not quite apples to apples, and as a benchmark test is slightly rough around the edges, but it paints a picture.

i ran through the following tests in order for each version in turn. the file is of a small(ish) house: 350 sq. m. single-storey, flat site. the model is well developed and in reasonable detail...

[edit]file size is 65.4MB - the 'file open' test involved launching archicad from quit and a library load across the network. after the initial opening of model generated viewpoints and the data being written to cache, any subsequent rebuild is pretty much instantaneous. there is little or no time delay penalty for working in 'continuous rebuild' model viewpoints.[/edit]

FILE OPEN
MBP (DUAL) AC11... 5m 19s
MBP (DUAL) AC12... 2m 24s

MP (QUAD) AC11... 3m 31s
MP (QUAD) AC12... 2m 11s

OPEN AUTO-REBUILD SECTION - Long Section Y, Vectorial Hatching, No Transp., No Shadows
MBP (DUAL) AC11... 1m 52s
MBP (DUAL) AC12... 31s

MP (QUAD) AC11... 1m 18s
MP (QUAD) AC12... 17s

OPEN AUTO-REBUILD ELEVATION - Main North Elev, Vectorial Hatching, No Transp., No Shadows
MBP (DUAL) AC11... 1m 14s
MBP (DUAL) AC12... 16s

MP (QUAD) AC11... 52s
MP (QUAD) AC12... 11s

3D WINDOW GENERATION - Full Model, OpenGL
MBP (DUAL) AC11... 1m 25s
MBP (DUAL) AC12... 24s

MP (QUAD) AC11... 51s
MP (QUAD) AC12... 17s

as you can see - archicad 12 on the mac book pro (dual) is easily outperforming archicad 11 on the higher spec'd mac pro (quad).

speed wise, it feels good!

but remember that your results may vary: this is some very rough testing - my archicads are loaded for bear (add-ons-R-us) and as such take a performance hit on open/model generation, etc....

cheers
~/archiben

Re: AC 12: Can a laptop still work in place of a 8 core mach

Rick Thompson — Wed, 18 Jun 2008 13:16:52 GMT

Hummm.. this is a fairly developed model, and my times are almost too fast to measure generating an auto build section/elevation w/vector hatching.

AC11 = 5 sec
AC12 = 3 sec (maybe) Opening again is instant.

Re: AC 12: Can a laptop still work in place of a 8 core mach

Chazz — Thu, 19 Jun 2008 18:32:23 GMT

~/archiben wrote:
ok... i ran some tests......

Ben, that pretty much lays it out right there. Thank you Sooooooo much for taking the time. I'm sure others will likewise find this very helpful.

I have to say that your info pushes me more into the laptop camp. Despite the doubling of processors and the generally faster specs on the Quad, nowhere was AC 12 twice as fast on the desktop Vs the laptop. It's more like 1.5x to almost 2x. I think I could live with that if it means a system that could fit in my backpack for a bike ride to work. It would be fascinating to see what an 8 core machine would do.

And I have to say that I'm really not interested in maintaining two systems anymore. I used to do it and use ChronoSync (a great tool) but it was a real chore to keep them in sync. One laptop per child (or in my case, child-like multi-office peripatetic vagabond) is what I'm after.

Re: AC 12: Can a laptop still work in place of a 8 core mach

Chazz — Thu, 19 Jun 2008 18:40:01 GMT

Rick wrote:
Hummm.. this is a fairly developed model, and my times are almost too fast to measure generating an auto build section/elevation w/vector hatching.
AC11 = 5 sec
AC12 = 3 sec (maybe) Opening again is instant.

Thanks Rick, that seems pretty quick to me. I suspect you have done a really good job of layer management and only have the min stuff turned on to get the view (which is pretty, by the way).

Re: AC 12: Can a laptop still work in place of a 8 core mach

__archiben — Thu, 19 Jun 2008 22:07:03 GMT

Chazz wrote:
Ben, that pretty much lays it out right there.

no problem. as rick says, any subsequent opening of those same sections and elevations is pretty much instantaneous. also - FYI, the 'file open' test included archicad launching from quit and loading libraries across a network...

I have to say that your info pushes me more into the laptop camp. Despite the doubling of processors and the generally faster specs on the Quad, nowhere was AC 12 twice as fast on the desktop Vs the laptop. It's more like 1.5x to almost 2x.

sure, but what is it they say? once you've had a taste . . .

'tis very hard to work on the lappie after the quad now. and you would have to hold a gun to my head to make me use archicad 11 on it!

cheers
~/archiben

Re: AC 12: Can a laptop still work in place of a 8 core mach

Chazz — Thu, 19 Jun 2008 22:27:09 GMT

So the key is, I must never taste of those fruits of octi-core goodness and must not drink from the challis of desktop splendor. I'm a laptop man now and I ain't looking back.

I just ordered a 2.6 Ghz 17" MPB with the hi rez screen (non, glossy I would have preferred it but the wait time was longer) and 512 MB of Vram and 4 GB of system RAM and the 200 MB 7200 RPM drive. No, I haven't mentioned it to my wife.......

Thanks again for everyones help.

Re: AC 12: Can a laptop still work in place of a 8 core mach

Chazz — Mon, 30 Jun 2008 19:30:00 GMT

I'll just follow up here and say that I as happy as I was with my last MBP 15" (1st gen Core Duo, 2.0 Ghz), I absolutely love this 17". The screen is fantastic (they ended up shipping me a glossy, LED backlit unit), and the machine is faster and more responsive in every way. Highly recomended.