topic Re: AC 12 & Windows 7? in Installation & update

Upgrade to less-than-current version of AC?

Anonymous — Tue, 26 Mar 2024 16:25:06 GMT

I am sort of in the same boat and considering upgrading because I'm so frustrated with the slowness at which my computer renders 3D objects. I recreate historic architectural elements from old photographs or fragments of historic objects (and they have to be extremely accurate because they become working/shop drawings for fabricators)... and the beach ball gets a lot of play on my computer. But, like Dave, the price tag for the brand spanking new Archicad is something my little company can't afford.
How do you upgrade to a new old version (like 15)? Will the WIBU key that I have now allow 15 to work? Is this a no-no?
One of the reasons I stopped upgrading is that converting files to a new version was such a nightmare. My projects are on the boards for years ... I tried the upgrade thing twice and it was such a disaster that I stopped.

I'm unclear as to whether it's my computer that's slow or what. I will be extremely frustrated if I go through the whole new computer/upgrade Archicad and have the same problems.

Any insights or comments are appreciated.

Re: AC 12 & Windows 7?

Anonymous — Mon, 12 May 2014 16:16:09 GMT

For instance - is it kosher to buy AC 15 from this vendor (or another vendor like them)?

[moderator deleted]

Then do you buy something from Graphisoft that changes your WIBU key?

And is 15 the version I should be considering? Are there other versions that provide better support for what I do? (Modeling historic objects in detail ...)

Or am I going down the wrong path altogether?

Re: Upgrade to less-than-current version of AC?

Karl Ottenstein — Mon, 12 May 2014 16:28:17 GMT

What are your graphics card specs - model, amount of memory? That's the main thing for OpenGL.

Re: AC 12 & Windows 7?

Karl Ottenstein — Mon, 12 May 2014 16:33:34 GMT

mc0m wrote:
For instance - is it kosher to buy AC 15 from this vendor (or another vendor like them)?

[moderator deleted]

Then do you buy something from Graphisoft that changes your WIBU key?

And is 15 the version I should be considering? Are there other versions that provide better support for what I do? (Modeling historic objects in detail ...)

Or am I going down the wrong path altogether?

That has to be illegal software at that price, or else they are over-charging for the free-to-all software but without a WIBU/Codemeter license key. Since the software is delivered digitally, it is most likely 'cracked' to run without a keyplug = illegal. When so-called 'cracked' software is installed, it typically will not be recognized by the update procedures from Graphisoft and so no hotfixes can be applied, leaving you with whatever bugs exist in the (illegal) version obtained.

Only Graphisoft can upgrade your WIBU/Codemeter key to work with any newer version of AC...and I'm not aware of any offer that they have to do a partial upgrade. They would upgrade you to 17... and then you could choose to use 15 (key is valid for any lower version at all times).

You can bug a legal key (new keyplug) from a licensed owner of AC 15... but then if you ever want to upgrade in the future, that other key has to be re-registered in your name with Graphisoft involving a steep 'transfer fee'.

Re: Upgrade to less-than-current version of AC?

Anonymous — Mon, 12 May 2014 16:55:00 GMT

Karl wrote:
What are your graphics card specs - model, amount of memory? That's the main thing for OpenGL.

Graphics card: ATI Radeon HD 5870 1024 MB

Open GL vs. Internal engine. I tried the internal engine to see if maybe it is faster, but that was not so good and very pixelly.

Re: AC 12 & Windows 7?

Anonymous — Mon, 12 May 2014 17:07:10 GMT

Karl wrote:
That has to be illegal software at that price, or else they are over-charging for the free-to-all software but without a WIBU/Codemeter license key. Since the software is delivered digitally, it is most likely 'cracked' to run without a keyplug = illegal. When so-called 'cracked' software is installed, it typically will not be recognized by the update procedures from Graphisoft and so no hotfixes can be applied, leaving you with whatever bugs exist in the (illegal) version obtained.

Only Graphisoft can upgrade your WIBU/Codemeter key to work with any newer version of AC...and I'm not aware of any offer that they have to do a partial upgrade. They would upgrade you to 17... and then you could choose to use 15 (key is valid for any lower version at all times).

You can bug a legal key (new keyplug) from a licensed owner of AC 15... but then if you ever want to upgrade in the future, that other key has to be re-registered in your name with Graphisoft involving a steep 'transfer fee'.

Now I am totally depressed.

Re: Upgrade to less-than-current version of AC?

Karl Ottenstein — Mon, 12 May 2014 18:33:33 GMT

mc0m wrote:
Graphics card: ATI Radeon HD 5870 1024 MB

You should have no problems at all with this card and the other machine specs that you list.

Either your model has an incredible number of polygons and/or solid element operations... or the improvements in 3D performance in versions after 12 may account for why I have no issues with a similar configuration.

If you do not have the PolyCount "goodie" installed... go to the Help menu and download/install it (you'll have to restart AC to have it show up in your Windows menu). With your 3D window open, launch PolyCount and report back with a screenshot of the numbers you see.

Since you do historic buildings, it seems likely that you may have modeled some intricate details "too well". 😉 This will let us all know what's happening.

As for upgrades... it sounds like your practice is a solo one - e.g., no TeamWork - and so another option for upgrades for you is the Start Edition. Best to contact your reseller to see what options that can offer. I gather that prices are going up again after the end of this month.

Re: Upgrade to less-than-current version of AC?

Anonymous — Mon, 12 May 2014 19:13:45 GMT

Hi Karl,

As always thank you for your insights. I've attached the image of the polycount window.

Re: Upgrade to less-than-current version of AC?

Anonymous — Mon, 12 May 2014 19:42:06 GMT

Just talked to Kevin at Graphisoft and after explaining to him what I am trying to do (modeling components in very high detail) he said that the morph tool would really help me. I'm building everything now with complex profile and profiler. So, I need to research this morph tool.

Re: Upgrade to less-than-current version of AC?

Karl Ottenstein — Mon, 12 May 2014 20:45:54 GMT

Glad you talked with Kevin! Hard to say on the Morph Tool. I agree it will help make historical details much more easily... but it can also help you add more polygons to your model. 🙂

Where it will help is in smoothing/hiding edges that would otherwise be visible in prior tools... thus allowing fewer polygons to look acceptable.

My models are much more lightweight than yours, and ArchiCAD does not handle large numbers of polygons well at all. (Other 3D programs, such as Artlantis, can handle a much larger number of polygons with ease.)

For example, attached is the PolyCount output for a recent home remodel (shell and terrain only)... 1/26th of the number of polygons in your model. Totally zippy in 3D.

If you click the flippy triangle in your PolyCount window in front of Object, you can find out WHICH objects are using so many polygons and begin to study ways of reducing total polygons when you work in 3D. The easiest method of course is to have layer combinations that completely turn off elements that are not visible (e.g., if those columns and curved wall are interior elements and not seen from exterior views... and the columns turn out to be high poly, turn 'em off in your exterior view combo). Or, make lower polygon versions of some elements. Unless your virtual camera is right in front of something... or you're going to create a 2":1' detail... there is no need for polygonal perfection.

Re: Upgrade to less-than-current version of AC?

Karl Ottenstein — Mon, 12 May 2014 20:50:05 GMT

Oh.... I wasn't paying complete attention to your screenshot... that's the number of polygons in what we actually see... your two columns and curved wall and slab?! (Count of objects says that 8 objects use 981,122 polygons!)

That is WAY too many polygons for what is there... somehow the curved wall and columns, bases are modeled with a precision that is completely unrealistic for ArchiCAD.

Glad we at least have nailed down why 3D performance is so bad for you... I cannot imagine what the polycount is for your entire model!

Did you create those columns (I'm guessing they're the culprit) ... or did you download them from somewhere and convert them to GDL? Tell us more about how you made them.

Re: Upgrade to less-than-current version of AC?

Anonymous — Mon, 12 May 2014 21:30:37 GMT

The base and shaft are modeled with the profiler add-on and the cap is made as a complex profile using the wall tool.

My challenge is that I HAVE to model them in extreme detail because I need to authentically reproduce historic columns. The columns need to be an exact match for the historic columns, not just sorta look like them. I work from historic photographs that I've scanned at 600-1200 dpi and I zoom way in on the detail that needs to be recreated. Then I start to create profiles and generate 3D images that match the POV and light source of the photograph. I refine the profiles over and over and over and over again until I get as close as I can get. I'll usually go through the process ~20 times for each element until I get it right.

The fabricators will use my drawings to create the milling knives to make the profiles.

Re: Upgrade to less-than-current version of AC?

Anonymous — Mon, 12 May 2014 21:37:47 GMT

Like this.

Re: Upgrade to less-than-current version of AC?

Anonymous — Mon, 12 May 2014 21:50:07 GMT

This image shows the profile for the top of the shaft and the capital. The shaft is turned on a radius in profile and the cap is made into a square with the complex profile wall tool.
Per the detail on polycount, it looks as if the shaft uses the most polygons.

Re: Upgrade to less-than-current version of AC?

Anonymous — Mon, 12 May 2014 21:52:18 GMT

Here's the detail count. Since I used the wall tool to model the base and the cap - maybe that means that the profiler add-on is creating too many polygons?

Re: Upgrade to less-than-current version of AC?

Anonymous — Mon, 12 May 2014 21:58:23 GMT

Karl wrote:
Glad you talked with Kevin! Hard to say on the Morph Tool. I agree it will help make historical details much more easily... but it can also help you add more polygons to your model. 🙂

I looked at the youtube videos and I don't see where the morph tool is any easier than complex profiles and profiler. Maybe I'm missing something.

Re: Upgrade to less-than-current version of AC?

Karl Ottenstein — Tue, 13 May 2014 00:49:02 GMT

mc0m wrote:
My challenge is that I HAVE to model them in extreme detail because I need to authentically reproduce historic columns. The columns need to be an exact match for the historic columns, not just sorta look like them. I work from historic photographs that I've scanned at 600-1200 dpi and I zoom way in on the detail that needs to be recreated. Then I start to create profiles and generate 3D images that match the POV and light source of the photograph. I refine the profiles over and over and over and over again until I get as close as I can get. I'll usually go through the process ~20 times for each element until I get it right.

The fabricators will use my drawings to create the milling knives to make the profiles.

ArchiCAD users all over the world have been modeling historical buildings for decades.... but not with the precision matching that you're talking about. If an ornate capital needs to be reproduced... a craftsman will duplicate an existing one using their skills; it won't be automatically manufactured from the model.

If you're trying to drive a milling machine or 3D printer to generate absolutely smooth curves... ArchiCAD is the wrong program. There is a huge difference the 100% physical match that you're trying to do and typical construction documents - that are realistic representations at all required printing scales, or generating computer renderings that look photorealistic at all reasonable virtual camera distances (which sometimes requires making a specific element hyper-accurate, but leaving the rest 'normal').

A shop drawing instructs the mill to use certain radii and other measurements to reproduce your column. The shop drawing itself does not turn into a computer-assisted manufacturing (CAM) code sequence. Not from ArchiCAD anyway for curvy things. Timber framing, log cutting, sure. But milling rounded, decorative elements... not so much.

There is no way that today's ArchiCAD can, in the 3D window, display and manipulate a building of the detail you've described - and illustrated with the 400,000 polygons for a single column. It would be many tens or 100's of millions of polygons. Even the beefiest new Mac Pro wouldn't be able to cope. Some other 3D program might be able to do so... but I wouldn't know.

What is your final output - images, or masked images that match existing photos? Or construction documents? Or?

Re: Upgrade to less-than-current version of AC?

Anonymous — Tue, 13 May 2014 14:04:32 GMT

In this case there is no existing column and it has to be reproduced from a photograph - and the fabricator has to have an accurate construction document.

I reworked the model and converted all of the objects created in the profiler add-on to complex profile walls. This significantly reduced the # of polygons.