topic Re: Time for a new Mac? in Installation & update

!Restored: Time for a new Mac?

Rick Thompson — Thu, 24 Jan 2008 18:26:20 GMT

I have been reading the new speed results in Macworld regarding the newest Mac Pro desktops, and I am wondering if it is that time again. I am still on a G5 (2Ghz). It seems the new ones overall score are from 294 (basic) to 327 (all the way). My G5 is rated overall at 166, so that says it is time. However, with AC, I just don't know if the "overall" has much meaning or not. My guess is running AC would not see that percent increase.

My main areas I could benefit would be opening files, updating externally linked drawings, publishing etc. Renderings are not as important, but of course, they count too. I might open and close quite a few files each day, so updating is where I tend to get impatient.

And, then there is the G5 and the intel factor. I think there is not that much difference there, if anyone knows, i would appreciate hearing your experience. I think processor speed is the biggest factor (?).

Assuming (haha) GS is busy making AC multi-processor enabled, then the 8 core would be worth the extra few hundred.

Oh well, any feedback would be appreciated.

thanks

Re: Time for a new Mac?

Anonymous — Thu, 24 Jan 2008 19:11:41 GMT

Hi there,

this is not an answer but rather I would like to join in with additional question:
I am switching back to Mac (was there 1988-2000) and my question is HOW 24" iMac:

2.8GHz Intel Core 2 Extreme
4GB memory
500GB hard drive
ATI Radeon HD 2600 PRO with 256MB memory

compare in day to day use (anyone using this configuration on complex models) to one in first post.

My bigest ? is given video card perfomance.

Re: Time for a new Mac?

Anonymous — Thu, 24 Jan 2008 19:44:12 GMT

Thanks Rick I hope this thread gains many posts. I am in the same boat as you, hardware wise. I too have been wanting to see the Layouts update quicker, the elevations to regen faster, etc. For rendering I am a die hard Cinema fan and I know that every processing cycle of every core will be utilized there. However, ArchiCad pays the bills and that is where I want to see speed increases.

I also would like to know more before I make a purchase.

There is a Mac dealer in my town, perhaps I will put together a project and install it on a machine to actually see the difference. Time permitting.

Re: Time for a new Mac?

Karl Ottenstein — Thu, 24 Jan 2008 23:32:28 GMT

The 24" iMacs seem like a very sweet spot in the price/performance curve.

Just some tangential information on Mac Pro (not to be confused with MacBook Pro):

The "Early 2008" Mac Pro's have a faster system bus (1600 MHz), memory (800 MHz) and processors than before. But, not well advertised is that the 3.2 GHz processors are 120 watts per quad-core chip, vs 80 watts for the 2.8 and 3.0 (if Apple used the low power 3.0's). The sweet spot IMHO is the 2.8 with the extra money going to memory, but the 3.0 could make sense for a full time C4D or video editing person. The 3.2 has quite a price jump, plus the carbon impact of an additional 80 watts of power consumed...

Apple is not shipping the 8800 gt display adapter for the new Mac Pros until late February, according to the chat; I'm waiting for it to arrive without complaints before I order.

Cheers,
Karl

Re: Time for a new Mac?

owen — Fri, 25 Jan 2008 01:03:43 GMT

GS have said that they will not be supporting PPC Macs in the future - can't find the link on their website but I think AC12 will be the last PPC release. So no rush but definately time to start looking at an upgrade sometime in the next year. The Mac Pros have just had a spec boost so they shouldn't change for a while.

As for the iMacs .. i would seriously consider one of these instead of a Mac Pro if i was buying a desktop (unless budget was not a consideration). I think they are great value for money and then there is the looks. Only thing i am hesitant about is the glossy screens - i would want to spend some time checking them out in different lighting conditions.

I don't think the 2.8 is worth the extra over the 2.4. Here in Aus you pay an extra $800 - admittedly you get an extra 1GB of Apples overpriced RAM and a slightly bigger HD, but no-one buys RAM from Apple, so i figure you are paying around $500 for that extra 0.4Ghz.

Performance of the video card is not an issue for ArchiCAD (or any other 3D app i know) .. unless of course you are worried about display bugs?

Have you considered getting a MacBook Pro and a Cinema display? Same performance as an iMac but a little more flexible. It does cost almost twice the price though.

Re: Time for a new Mac?

Rick Thompson — Fri, 25 Jan 2008 03:32:51 GMT

owen wrote:
Have you considered getting a MacBook Pro and a Cinema display? Same performance as an iMac but a little more flexible. It does cost almost twice the price though.

I really need 2 displays, which I have (2 - 23"), so I need to stay with the desktop. I have used that set up in the past, and I liked it fine, thought not as well as having both. I have an Intel MacBook Pro, but haven't played with AC on it that much. I got it for a back up (and a sit in the bed) computer, but now I want to sell it and get an Air:) That would be much better in the old lap. But, I think I should so a new desktop first

Karl, it seem to me too that the basic one with 4 gig ram makes the most sense.

Re: Time for a new Mac?

owen — Fri, 25 Jan 2008 03:58:36 GMT

2x23" is reason enough to go with Mac Pro for me

Re: Time for a new Mac?

Karl Ottenstein — Fri, 25 Jan 2008 16:12:19 GMT

Rick wrote:
Karl, it seem to me too that the basic one with 4 gig ram makes the most sense.

I would consider 8 gig.

I've been getting what little knowledge I have from the macrumors.com and apple.com forums (and here).

To get the full speed of the new memory technology / bus, you need at least 4 memory cards...but one tester noted that with 6 cards (the 2 delivered in the base machine, plus 4 more) he got full speed as well, so will filling 4 slots is a minimum, filling 6 slots works too.

Especially if you need/want to run Parallels so that you can run some Windows apps (like the free Autodesk DWG viewer, or even the Windows version of AC for a few minutes for those pesty plug-ins that are still not available for OS X), you'll want more memory available for that virtual machine so that you're not swapping to disk so much. Throw in running AC (likely multiple copies including background updates), Artlantis, Safari, and whatnot, the more memory the better to keep things fast.

As owen notes, Apple prices for RAM and hard disks are obscene - buy them elsewhere. The new 800 MHz memory is not widely available, but most poster recommend the memory from OWC here:
http://eshop.macsales.com/shop/memory/Mac-Pro-Memory

There have been reports that the standard 320 GB drive in the base Mac Pro is a Seagate with slow transfer speeds. One poster had almost double the speed in a benchmark replacing it with a Western Digital drive.

Mac Pro still supports software RAID, but I haven't seen adequate benchmarks. It supports hardware RAID with an $800 add-on card, but from what I've gathered, XP cannot recognize that card from Bootcamp and it seems that Parallels cannot deal with that card either.

Cheers,
Karl

Re: Time for a new Mac?

Rick Thompson — Fri, 25 Jan 2008 16:42:49 GMT

8 Gig.. I wasn't expecting that since I never fully use up 4 gigs, but that is good info. I had no idea that the slots filled has a bearing on the bus performance.

Course, today is a different day, and the plot thickens I got an email from my daughter saying she was thinking about buying an Air. I said she was too young and didn't deserve one, but she should by my MacBook Pro... so I could get an Air. She just wrote back asking how much. I hate these life decisions. It's hard enough to just not suffer, then you are faced with this sort of stuff to deal with. As the Buddha said.. all life is suffering, and then you die (or something like that)

And, I make my living off housing, and look where we are.. dead in the water.

Re: Time for a new Mac?

Karl Ottenstein — Fri, 25 Jan 2008 16:53:52 GMT

Rick wrote:
8 Gig.. I wasn't expecting that since I never fully use up 4 gigs, but that is good info.

Well, it is not essential. Especially if you got just the 4 core and didn't run many concurrent apps, much less Parallels. But figure with an 8 core machine, each core can potentially be running different stuff...if you've got it going on...and so many more processes can be active, wanting their little bit of memory. Generally, more memory means less disk activity equals better responsiveness.

I wouldn't pay Apple for 8GB, but at the OWC prices, it's worth considering.

Decisions.

Cheers,
Karl

Re: Time for a new Mac?

Karl Ottenstein — Fri, 25 Jan 2008 17:17:20 GMT

Article with some good info on Mac Pro memory configuration:
http://barefeats.com/harper3.html

Re: Time for a new Mac?

Anonymous — Fri, 25 Jan 2008 17:17:41 GMT

Being that Apple has already stopped supporting the PPC with the newer technologies, with a few exceptions (even still incorporating some to X.3), a new machine would seem to be a wise investment. However the "new" technologies used in OS X.4+ are implemented in a way that changes the process similar to the way ArchiCAD changed the design process.

You should wait until a solid state drive is available regardless of how small they appear to be. I would only hope they would still keep a spot for at least one internal HDD for storage.

Why.

As usual Apple has taken a backwards approach when they implemented the "new" graphics technologies in OS X.4+ (80's vintage) when they incorporated NeXT. What has been the norm in regards to OpenGL and graphics technologies, especially on a Mac no longer applies.

Virtual memory has typically been a fall back for when you exceeded physical memory. With OS X.4+ that is no longer true. While creating graphics on a Mac you are utilizing your hard drive considerably more than RAM or your processor combined. Thus the SSD is going to have an advantage over the HDD in the actual "right now" graphical user experience as it does not rely on the rotation speed of the drive or the responsiveness of the head.

The processor builds the graphics library and stores it in virtual memory on your hard drive, your graphics card then become a server for those libraries unlike any other commercially available OS even different from NeXT which is what it is/was. Really not so new but a new implementation coined NeXTStep hence the NS prefix you see in the human readable format of the code.

This is the reason that often times the performance on the shared memory machines exceeds that of similar machine with a dedicated GC. Unfortunately each patch/update/point release increases performance on one while producing a hit on the other. IMO part of this was due to the original MacIntel 1,1's and IA-32.

So the SSD is more like RAM only non volatile so does not need to be cleared but can be added to and it has no mechanical "drag" as is experienced with a 7200 RPM HDD. "It's still spinning my head is dizzy That censored beach ball is making me crazy."

One thing to consider is upgrading your current machine until such time as these are available. The most beneficial upgrade would be a large graphics card that is both Quartz Extreme and Core Image supported with an OpenGL texture limit that is capable of producing your target image size.

Why.

To experience the performance increase during interaction and a quicker graphical response to user input.

Rendering for some is also an important part of their presentation yet there has always been one thing or another about the engines that causes "issues" or has certain limitations and is "too complex" or time consuming for others. Mac OS X.4 should (have) change(d) this. With Core Image rendering engines are almost obsolete It is a rendering engine and it is OpenGL, it is QuickTime which is the OS hence "Core Technologies". GS seems to be well aware of this and it is evident in some of the developer tools they have made available. One thing that will break through many limitations is the external Access to the Model (don't recall GS's actual name ATM.). Core Image combined with Core Animation, and Core Video enables you to create a rendered scene that is "live" with leaves swaying, rain, snow, fog, gravity, people moving, real time reflections as something passes a mirror or other reflective surface, sun rising, rivers running, what have you. The technology is already available it's just that nobody seems to be using it, or even know it's there, though GS has provided dev tools to do so. But on the same note it took me about two years to get up to speed trying to forget what I knew about what was.

IMO An ideal office for AC (a one person outfit) would be to have an Original G4 with DVD MPEG 2 hardware support and a G5 almost any configuration networked together via FireWire over IP. This will allow one to view and create content from OS 8 to OS X.whatever- and AC 5+. Upgrading the graphics cards in these machine to a modern one (QE and CI) would also provide an advantage as well as a speed boost for rendering your final project while working on the new one with an about zero performance hit. The technologies that enable this is called xGrid, again already available but under utilized and promoted. Have offices across continents? No problem xGrid allows you to utilize the processors of the machines that would otherwise be dormant after hours to your offices that are working their normal hours. 1- 100, 1000 or what ever processors plugging away rendering while keeping the host machine free to continue working. Closets full of G4's or G5's time to dust them off and put them to use. You can even keep them in the closet you just need to plug them in.

The other reason to NOT get rid of a G5 and to invest in one if you don't already have one is that you will need one if you produce anything with sound that needs to be synced. Core Audio is still big endian and little endian cannot swap bytes c c c cor r r r rect t t t ly. However the PPC running 10.3.2 w QT 6.2 or less is still pure PPC and can make use the images (provided they are rendered to a file as you will lose CI textures if they are not) and sync them together with Audio.

Jeffrey

Re: Time for a new Mac?

Anonymous — Sun, 27 Jan 2008 19:02:50 GMT

Remember before making a large purchase, you might have options available to you.

If you are a student of a university, or someone in your family is a student - then you can use the Apple Developer Connection Student Membership.

It costs $99, but you get a free copy of Leopard which you can sell on eBAY (remember it is a 1 Time use only option).

Base Price becomes $2479. Which comes well under the regular Student discount, and far below the standard price.

see:
http://store.apple.com/AppleStore/WebObjects/ADC?qprm=38839

Otherwise, a Mac Pro 8 core 2.8 Ghz with 500 GB HD and 8800GT at standard price comes out to $3,099 - a savings of $620 smackers.

Re: Time for a new Mac?

Karl Ottenstein — Mon, 28 Jan 2008 00:56:49 GMT

Burginger wrote:
If you are a student of a university, or someone in your family is a student - then you can use the Apple Developer Connection Student Membership.

Good point, Mark! In the case of non-students, the $499 'select' fee can be worthwhile for a very expensive Mac Pro.

If one wants warranty support/etc, probably not a good idea to scam a non-family student into getting a machine for you since the contract specifies:

You may not resell or otherwise transfer any items purchased for a period of at least one year from the
date of shipment. You may use products that you order under the ADC Hardware Purchase Program only
for the purpose of maintaining your company’s IT infrastructure, developing internal software for your
Company, and developing software and/or hardware products that will be sold for use with Apple
products.

Also, the contract notes that developer machines may take 4 to 6 weeks to ship. I guess since they're sold at such a discount, Apple puts them on the back of the list to sell retail machines first.

Thanks for the heads-up,
Karl

Re: Time for a new Mac?

Anonymous — Mon, 28 Jan 2008 02:17:29 GMT

Did I say scam? I don't remember saying that or even insinuate such a thing. I have a son in college and maybe Rick and you do too. Don't you already spend too much on tuition?

Re: Time for a new Mac?

Karl Ottenstein — Mon, 28 Jan 2008 04:00:38 GMT

Burginger wrote:
Did I say scam? I don't remember saying that or even insinuate such a thing. I have a son in college and maybe Rick and you do too. Don't you already spend too much on tuition?

Sincere apologies for implying anything, Mark! You said no such thing, and I know both you and Rick have kids. I was leaping ahead to the other readers who might read between the lines and think...hey, so and so has a kid in school, and ...

Sorry. Hope you're enjoying the move to Oregon...

Cheers,
Karl

Re: Time for a new Mac?

Rick Thompson — Mon, 28 Jan 2008 14:18:48 GMT

Kids in school? Several down, and one to go. I got the latest who just graduated a MacBook for graduation, and he went out and got a job with Dell So, if any of you guys need a bunch of new Dells for your office, let me know. After he finishes the training he will be in business sells, and I am sure he would like a call.

Re: Time for a new Mac?

Anonymous — Mon, 28 Jan 2008 23:37:12 GMT

Karl wrote:
Sorry. Hope you're enjoying the move to Oregon...

Cheers,
Karl

Enjoy the move? Sure, if I could only find my ArchiSnowShovel Object. Excuse me while I talk to my neighbor's kid regarding my next purchase.

Re: Time for a new Mac?

Erich — Thu, 31 Jan 2008 03:10:00 GMT

Mark,

At least while you are shoveling snow with your ArchiShovel you can see some sky. Try living on the wet side...

Re: Time for a new Mac?

Anonymous — Thu, 31 Jan 2008 06:09:42 GMT

You have been filling the weather radar for over a week? month? whew!