topic Re: Wait for Apple Intel machines? in Installation & update

Wait for Apple Intel machines?

Anonymous — Mon, 15 Aug 2005 09:36:10 GMT

I need a new laptop and my question is should I get the last upgrade of the powerPC laptops or wait until 6 months for the new ones. I guess that all depends on GS. If they are read/willing to support intel for mac for the next version or not. Any ideas anyone? Graphisoft?

Re: Wait for Apple Intel machines?

Anonymous — Mon, 15 Aug 2005 09:55:51 GMT

Sorry for the double post.

Re: Wait for Apple Intel machines?

James Murray — Mon, 15 Aug 2005 12:38:28 GMT

I felt I had no choice, I just got a new PB. I had the original 17" 1Ghz, it was 27 months old, which is IMO pushing it for AC. My current main project is pretty big, and it was becoming stressful. I had already bumped up the RAM and the HD. (Since the machines are the same, I could bring the extra 1GB with me to the new one.) I intend to sell the old one, which also affects the math.

The new machine is indisputably better, and the 128MB VRAM is nice, but it doesn't have the 'wow new machine' feel. I knew this going in, I'm not disappointed. The PB line is stalled, it's one of the reasons we're going Intel, supposedly? (The desktop line is stalled too, but at a much higher, actually IMO acceptable, level.)

Computers get better, it's what they do. If you wait, you'll get something better for the same/less money. If you wait forever, you'll get nothing, for free! My point is, you need to buy what you need when you need it. As for the six months, I'm not sure. Can you wait 9? 12? What if you wait 6, then it turns out you need to wait 6 more? Had you bought now, that machine would be one year old when the Mactels come out, and you could upgrade again while the resale value of the current models is still good. This was also part of my math.

It comes down to productivity. If it's driving you crazy, replace it and get back to work. Don't try to read Jobs' mind.

As for AC running on Mactel, there's no way of knowing, but I think the emulation tech is pretty good. That is, it will run, at better than Virtual PC speed. Chips a year from now will be faster. OTOH, such things sometimes don't turn out as promised, especially where AC-on-Mac is concerned. AC will run on PPC for a while I would think.

PS, I think you can delete a post if it hasn't been replied to.

Re: Wait for Apple Intel machines?

Karl Ottenstein — Mon, 15 Aug 2005 18:18:52 GMT

James wrote:
As for AC running on Mactel, there's no way of knowing, but I think the emulation tech is pretty good. That is, it will run, at better than Virtual PC speed.

I might be wrong, James, but my understanding is that there will be no emulation. Instead, the new compilers generate TWO binaries - a PPC and an Intel binary. So, applications that are recompiled for the MacTel will run at native speeds - but will still run at native speeds on PPC... because a 'new' application is really two versions.

Haven't had time to keep up on my Apple Dev reading though...

Karl

Re: Wait for Apple Intel machines?

aahatimo — Mon, 15 Aug 2005 21:25:00 GMT

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Re: Wait for Apple Intel machines?

__archiben — Tue, 16 Aug 2005 00:59:06 GMT

Karl wrote:
... my understanding is that there will be no emulation. Instead, the new compilers generate TWO binaries - a PPC and an Intel binary. So, applications that are recompiled for the MacTel will run at native speeds - but will still run at native speeds on PPC... because a 'new' application is really two versions.

that's true for applications that have been ported to X-code and recompiled as a universal-binary. what james is talking about are all those developers who opt (or simply don't have the resources available to them) not to go that route. steve jobs spoke of apple's use of new 'emulation' technology, rossetta, - thought to be derived from uk company 'transitive's' hardware virtualisation technology . . . it allows any binary to run on any pre-processor/system and means old PPC binaries will run in emulation under the new macintel chips with "barely any performance drop".

the situation, of course, is far more complicated - firstly metrowerks have thrown in the towel on their mac operation - this will leave graphisoft three options:

1. to continue their mac-archiCAD development on increasingly out of date development software and have archiCAD run under rosetta emulation.
2. to move the development of mac-archiCAD to X-code and have the overhead of maintaining two development platforms, (or move both mac and PC development back onto the mac with X-code).
3. ditch mac-archiCAD altogether and focus on PC-only sales.

none of which are particularly exciting propositions that will please everybody. (unless codewarrior on a pc can (or will be able to) compile for mac - either PPC or the dual-binaries???)

throw into the mix the fact rosetta can't run altivec code or applications that require a G4 or better and suddenly the future doesn't look so bright.

admittedly, i'm not a techie, nor am in possession of the full facts or 'bigger picture' so i would hasten to guess which way graphisoft will jump. maybe the fourth option is that macintel chips will make a revit-for-mac transition easier? who knows . . .

~/archiben

Re: Wait for Apple Intel machines?

Anonymous — Tue, 16 Aug 2005 02:32:38 GMT

~/archiben wrote:
- this will leave graphisoft three options:
1. to continue their mac-archiCAD development on increasingly out of date development software and have archiCAD run under rosetta emulation.

2. to move the development of mac-archiCAD to X-code and have the overhead of maintaining two development platforms, (or move both mac and PC development back onto the mac with X-code).

3. ditch mac-archiCAD altogether and focus on PC-only sales.
~/archiben

I would like to have Graphisoft weigh in on which option they are looking at to make the transition.

Re: Wait for Apple Intel machines?

__archiben — Tue, 16 Aug 2005 06:41:34 GMT

Millard wrote:
I would like to have Graphisoft weigh in on which option they are looking at to make the transition.

there was really another fourth option i put in there dressed up as disclaimer: that codewarrior on a PC allows the compilation of mac PPC code.

that would probably maintain the status quo as much as possible and mean that mac users will be running under rosetta emulation. if that is the case, i'm sure it's the option graphisoft would plump for: it means no difference for their development environment . . . and mac users still get treated as the outcasts and have to put up with rosettaCAD. maybe somebody who uses codewarrior on a PC can comment?

and further down the road: if codewarrior on a PC does compile for a mac, i'm sure metrowerks would eventually catch up with the 'universal binary' thing in a future release and we will all be happy again . . .

whatever the scenario, based on past graphisoft performance, my money's on autodesk releasing revit-for-mac before archiCAD goes dual-binary.

~/archiben

Re: Wait for Apple Intel machines?

Anonymous — Wed, 17 Aug 2005 18:43:25 GMT

Maybe I should consider a Windows laptop just in case!?

Re: Wait for Apple Intel machines?

Djordje — Fri, 19 Aug 2005 05:59:57 GMT

Although the topic does not concern me personally, as I am on Windows, I have enough Mac head friends that I did think about it.

Given the Mac user base, it is hardly conceivable that Graphisoft will abandon the Mac, despite the obvious complication of developing for two operating systems, one of which is using two processors that are quite different. It is obviously a big effort, and I wish the guys in development well. Given also their long term relationship with Apple, I would presume that the necessary information already exists in the Red Fort on Danube ...

Please don't kill me, but for sheer power and speed, Windows machines are kicking Macs in the behind for quite some time ... yes, the experience of using a Mac is something different and sublime, I love the Mighty Mouse, but sorry, I have to publish this in 15 minutes. That is the bottom line. Productivity.

Let's see the new Mactels first; any of them around yet or any dates announced?

Re: Wait for Apple Intel machines?

Karl Ottenstein — Sat, 20 Aug 2005 01:46:28 GMT

Graphisoft has confirmed, offline, their clear intention of supporting the Mac platform including native support for the new Intel-based Macs, when they arrive. Perhaps a direct statement from them here may be coming...?

I'm actually expecting the MacTel machines to be faster than Windows, because OS X seems more efficient than XP. We've never had equal platforms to compare them on before, so it will be fun to see how things stack up when the MacTels arrive.

Karl

Re: Wait for Apple Intel machines?

Anonymous — Sat, 20 Aug 2005 07:27:37 GMT

Karl wrote:
Graphisoft has confirmed, offline, their clear intention of supporting the Mac platform including native support for the new Intel-based Macs, when they arrive. Perhaps a direct statement from them here may be coming...?

Good news.
Thanks, Karl.

Re: Wait for Apple Intel machines?

TomWaltz — Thu, 15 Sep 2005 21:01:46 GMT

Djordje wrote:
Please don't kill me, but for sheer power and speed, Windows machines are kicking Macs in the behind for quite some time ... yes, the experience of using a Mac is something different and sublime, I love the Mighty Mouse, but sorry, I have to publish this in 15 minutes.

The really annoying thing about that statement is that it seems unique to Archicad. Most of the other apps I run absolutely fly on my 2.0 GHz G5 compared to the 3.0 GHz machines in the office.

Re: Wait for Apple Intel machines?

__archiben — Thu, 15 Sep 2005 21:35:18 GMT

TomWaltz wrote:
Djordje wrote:
Please don't kill me, but for sheer power and speed, Windows machines are kicking Macs in the behind for quite some time ... yes, the experience of using a Mac is something different and sublime, I love the Mighty Mouse, but sorry, I have to publish this in 15 minutes.
The really annoying thing about that statement is that it seems unique to Archicad. Most of the other apps I run absolutely fly on my 2.0 GHz G5 compared to the 3.0 GHz machines in the office.

it doesn't seem to be archiCAD, it is archiCAD. and plotmaker. despite reassurences that everybody at graphisoft has both a mac and a PC next to them (they do - i've seen them), i doubt very very much whether many of the developers actually use them on a full time basis. because if they did they would identify the cause of the glaring difference between their own apps and every other mac app they run and get it fixed.

the argument in this case isn't who's icons look the prettiest (djordje!), but that there should be no reason why the performance of mac archiCAD isn't up to the standard pc archiCAD is. especially when developers such as adobe, macromedia, etc - even microsoft themselves! - can write applications for both platforms that "absolutely fly" (to quote tom).

with regard to the original topic: i am hoping that the move to macs with intel inside will actually prove beneficial to graphisoft if a lot of their code optimised for the pc chipset can be reused. i just hope that they can then dedicate their mac optimisation resources to really integrating archiCAD into the mac UI.

~/archiben