topic Re: Which Mac should I purchase in Installation & update

Which Mac should I purchase

Anonymous — Tue, 20 Apr 2004 15:45:32 GMT

I am an intern architect and I need to learn the Archicad program 8.1.2. I will need to buy a new Mac to run the program and am considering the new 20"
iMac G4. Specs are as follows 1.25 Ghz PowerPC G4, 512MB of PC2700(333Mhz.) DDR SDRAM, 80GB hard disk drive, 4XSuperDrive, NVIDIA GeForce
FX 5200 Ultra with 64MB of DDR SDRAM, 56K modem, 10/100BT Ethernet, Firewire and USB connectivity and AirPort Extreme ready. Is this going to be
a good machine for Archicad? Should I consider a G4 PowerMac and Cinema display? Will the iMac need to be upgraded in the near future, and can that be
done easily? Any suggestions would be helpfull.

Re: Which Mac should I purchase

Anonymous — Tue, 20 Apr 2004 15:57:02 GMT

Get a G5 and Cinema Display if you can afford it. The G5 is MUCH faster than the iMac and the Cinema Display is far better than anything else I have ever used (if only I could hook my ThinkPad up to it). The 20" display is the minimum for productivity in AC8.1 (and a very nice monitor) but I recommend the 23" if you can manage it. Monitors are typically used two to three time as long as computers so it really pays to get a good one.

The iMac can do the job for now, but the upgrade will be a replacement so you need to decide if it's worth buying for a relatively short useful life. (Of course iMacs do seem to maintain a pretty good resale value.)

Re: Which Mac should I purchase

Aussie John — Tue, 20 Apr 2004 22:24:07 GMT

I concur with Matthews comments and add that RAM is important too and the iMac is not as easily or cheaply upgraded as the number of slots is limited ( you might have to throw out RAM to put more in.
I'd want more than 512Mb.

Upgrading the iMac generally is not easy since it is an all in one. Mind you often computers go through their life with out being upgraded so long as the RAM is sufficient when first purchaced.

If you go for G4 tower ( and you could get a dual) then as Matthew says you can keep any monitor you get (or add an extra one)

Another alternative would be a Powerbook - that way when you upgrade to a Tower in the future you still have a useful computer.

Apple seem to be in the process of upgrading all their models (emac and laptops so far) An upgrade to the current G5 has been expected for some while but there is a delay. the iMac? I would expect something very soon as the new eMac currently runs with the same processor.

Re: Which Mac should I purchase

Dave Jochum — Wed, 21 Apr 2004 01:41:33 GMT

And I agree with both Matthew and John for all the reasons discussed. Some options: You can get a refurbished 23" Cinema display from Apple for $1700 ($300 off). Click on the red tag "Special Deals" at store.apple.com . I have bought several pieces from Apple refurbed with no problems what-so-ever. They often have refurbed G5 towers as well, but I see there are none presently. All my computers (all Apples) over the years have aged gracefully to become sloths before breaking, so you don't have to worry that a refurb will have too much wear on it--or even a used machine for that matter (I have also bought a few machines on eBay). The only thing that I would not recommend at this point in time, is shelling out the bucks for a new dual 2G. As suggested, they are due for replacement, which will cause the price to drop a few c notes. I'm waiting for the next quantum leap with new architecture and probably at least dual 3G processors--maybe by next January (MacWorld SF)? Since you didn't say anything about budget, I'm not sure just how much help this all is.

Re: Which Mac should I purchase

Anonymous — Wed, 21 Apr 2004 08:46:07 GMT

This is just a thought, if like me you do not have thousands of £$ to spend, you might want think about the following : Im upgrading my very ageing G3imac 400 at home. Currently the G5's are too expensive, I cant have a TFT screen because ive got young kids who want to poke the screen, also if I bought an imac, when I wanted to upgrade to a quicker machine I would be throwing away a perfectly good screen.

Therefore I am going to buy one of the new emacs, whilst its not the fastest machine in the world, it is equivalent to the top of line powermacs apple was selling a year ago, it also cost £500 / $700. THe 32Mb graphics card is a bit of a worry, but unless you are working on extremely large models I think its an excellent starter machine.

It would certainly get you started in learning Archicad, and you can then put some money aside to by a G6 5Ghz machine with 30"TFT in a couple of years time

Re: Which Mac should I purchase

Anonymous — Sat, 24 Apr 2004 00:08:14 GMT

If you need to buy now, consider getting the fastest G5 you can afford with a minimum of 1gb ram and 128mb video card. Add more ram as you need or can afford; easy to pop in. A cinema display would be nice, but expensive. I have (2) 18" Sony lcd displays that provide more horizontal screen area than a large cinema display and cost around $500 each. (Shop around!) You might start with one display and add another later. It is doubtful than G5 prices will drop significantly even as new models are added.

Re: Which Mac should I purchase

Dave Jochum — Mon, 26 Apr 2004 05:58:05 GMT

Mabe wrote:
If you need to buy now, consider getting the fastest G5 you can afford with a minimum of 1gb ram and 128mb video card.

It is doubtful than G5 prices will drop significantly even as new models are added.

I've already stated my recommendations on this, but have to respond, Mabe. I personally would never buy a new, full price piece of hardware when it is near the end of its life. It just does not make financial sense to me, even if cost were no object. Current hardware will always drop in price when it is replaced with a subsequent generation to clear it off the shelves. The new Powerbook release resulted in a $400 drop in price for the 1.33 GHz and the 1.5GHz is $100 cheaper than the former top-of-the-line unit. That is very typical for Apple. You can bank on it.

Re: Which Mac should I purchase

Anonymous — Mon, 26 Apr 2004 17:01:07 GMT

Dave, I am not disagreeing with you. I may be wrong, but I thought, the latest round of G5s had recently been introduced. The price of the dual G5 did not drop, and I don't think it is near the end of its life. Rumor has it that the Powerbook G5 is still light-months away. Over the years, as new models are introduced, older models drop in price from $100-$500, but I wouldn't wait if I didn't have a computer and needed one today. We should all do our research and check out sources like www.thinksecret.com.

Robert was asking about the iMac, and I think it is closer to the end of its life. But, it is probably the best value on the market and could be an affordable solution until the Powerbook G5 gets here.
~Mabe

Re: Which Mac should I purchase

Dave Jochum — Tue, 27 Apr 2004 00:37:48 GMT

Mabe wrote:
I may be wrong, but I thought, the latest round of G5s had recently been introduced. The price of the dual G5 did not drop, and I don't think it is near the end of its life. I wouldn't wait if I didn't have a computer and needed one today.

The "word on the street", as they say, is that new G5 towers will be out this summer--not too far away. It won't be a quantum leap in technology, but an incremental step. The 90 nm chip and controller design is apparently still a ways off.

Mabe wrote:
Robert was asking about the iMac, and I think it is closer to the end of its life. But, it is probably the best value on the market and could be an affordable solution until the Powerbook G5 gets here.
~Mabe

There are definitely a lot of choices for an interim 'puter. I think it just comes down to shopping for the best deal.

Re: Which Mac should I purchase

Anonymous — Tue, 27 Apr 2004 14:29:04 GMT

hi there,

I was a Mac user years ago. Mac's are really nice and beautiful machines.
I am sure it does a good job for years.
But that's until I shifted from Mac to PC.
To my amazement, i m not to brag something on pc, it's a leap on all the softwares that i used. It is easily upgradable, more affordable, more high end hardwares.
Archicad for example. runs smoother and a pretty big leap over the Mac G5. After my experience on the pc, a big number of friends shifted their platforms.
the system i used:
Dual 1.8GHz PowerPC G5
1Gb RAM
and a NVIDIA FX 5200 Ultra @ 64MB, and

Water cooled Pentium 4 3.06
1Gb of ram
Ati 9800XT @ 256 mb ddr ram

I tested both by using the same model, and same rendering method.
The p4 out perform the g5. it wasn't to my expectation that the p4 performed better.

My advice:
Use the amount of cash that you are going to pump into a Mac, go to dell or some computer IT related stores, and ask for a system with your budget. I m pretty sure the system you gonna have is definately faster then the mac that u gonna buy. These are just my thought.

Re: Which Mac should I purchase

Anonymous — Tue, 27 Apr 2004 15:57:11 GMT

L. wrote:
I tested both by using the same model, and same rendering method.
The p4 out perform the g5. it wasn't to my expectation that the p4 performed better.

I have been curious about ArchiCAD performance comparisons between G5 and P4 Xeon machines. I am a bit dismayed to hear that your experience is that the Pentium is still faster. Have you done controlled testing? Could you post the files (or images of them) used and the results?

This adds to my concern that Graphisoft is neglecting their Mac users. Clearly, based on processor or system performance, there is no reason that the Pentium should be able to outperform the G5.

There are also many little things that used to work well on the Mac that no longer do (they now work like Windows) and there are lots of little glitches in the interactions with system resources (like the open/save dialogs) that should not be getting through basic QC. (They are not killer bugs, just annoying glitches which I have not had the time to document and report myself. If I get the time I'll try to come up with a list.)

I continue to wonder whether there are ANY Macs being used to develop ArchiCAD anymore. It is one thing for the management to say that they care about their Mac user base, but if none of the programmers are using them then the Mac version of the software feels more and more like an afterthought. It feels like there is the danger that ArchiCAD is going the way of MS Word and Excel. They were also originally Mac only products which, after being ported to Windows, slowly became less and less usable and more Windows-like until Word 6 was so bad that Mac users were reverting to Word 5 (sound familiar?). (Curiously, since MS responded to this by creating the MacBU, Office has been consistently better on the Mac.)

Perhaps I'll add this to my wish topic for AC9.

Re: Which Mac should I purchase

Anonymous — Tue, 27 Apr 2004 17:02:44 GMT

well, first of all, i m not using Xeon,
i m using an one year old processor, p4 3.06, it is not a dismay to you, to me too.

i had done everything during the test. and the result, about 25 - 30% faster, it's a 250++mb hotel file, dont think i can post it.

i have got no idea that Graphisoft is neglecting their Mac users. as far as i m concern, pc is rather a faster platform, still.

as what i told everyone, i m not a pc user, but, the machine that i used really out performed a dual 1.8 g5.

Re: Which Mac should I purchase

Djordje — Tue, 27 Apr 2004 18:08:41 GMT

L. wrote:
well, first of all, i m not using Xeon,
i m using an one year old processor, p4 3.06, it is not a dismay to you, to me too.
////
as what i told everyone, i m not a pc user, but, the machine that i used really out performed a dual 1.8 g5.

3.06 is almost twice 1.8, so 20-30% is not so bad ...

In ArchiCAD, the graphics card also does make difference.

Money/speed ratio is definitely on the PC side, even with high end brand machines that are anything but cheap.

Just IMHO, of course.

Re: Which Mac should I purchase

Anonymous — Wed, 28 Apr 2004 05:19:52 GMT

Matthew wrote:
L. wrote:
I tested both by using the same model, and same rendering method.
The p4 out perform the g5. it wasn't to my expectation that the p4 performed better.
I have been curious about ArchiCAD performance comparisons between G5 and P4 Xeon machines. I am a bit dismayed to hear that your experience is that the Pentium is still faster. Have you done controlled testing? Could you post the files (or images of them) used and the results?

This adds to my concern that Graphisoft is neglecting their Mac users. Clearly, based on processor or system performance, there is no reason that the Pentium should be able to outperform the G5.

Djordje wrote:
3.06 is almost twice 1.8, so 20-30% is not so bad ...

In ArchiCAD, the graphics card also does make difference.

Money/speed ratio is definitely on the PC side, even with high end brand machines that are anything but cheap.

I am sorry for given out a slight wrong information, according to my IT technician, the water cooled P4 3.06 was hyper threading enabled, and Overclocked to 3.6 Ghz, using very high speed ram modules.
That is one of the reason why it is so fast.

Agreed to what Djordje mentioned, the graphics card.
The second factor is definately on the graphics processor itself. I was told the 9800 XT from ATI is the flagship model at the moment. Therefore, cant really compare the dual 1.8's fx 5200, as graphics processing plays a big role in Archicad.

I did the test again upon receiving replies from both of you.
Tests were performed on the Dual 1.8/fx 5200 and Single 3.06/9800xt. Both systems with 2 x 512 ram modules.

test 1: Archicad 8.1, cutting section on a complex hotel model.
dual 1.8: 3 min 25 sec
overclocked 3.06: 2 min 35 sec.

test 2: archicad8.1 3d rendering.
dual 1.8: system died/halt after +- 5 minutes.
overclocked 3.06: 11 min 50 sec.

Art lantis rendering. All set to the highest quality@1600x1200.Same view.
dual 1.8: 5 min 25 sec
overclocked 3.06: 3 min 05 sec.

I do not wish to include the custom built dual P4 3.20Ghz@1mb cache/2gb ram/asus 9800xt system in this test, mainly because this rig outperformed the 3.06 desktop by a big leap. i like macs, i dont want mac user to be deeply hurt anymore.

I hope this will make clear on our discussion.
I felt like overclock my G5 now.
Anybody got a clue?

Re: Which Mac should I purchase

Anonymous — Wed, 28 Apr 2004 06:14:50 GMT

L. wrote:
I am sorry for given out a slight wrong information, according to my IT technician, the water cooled P4 3.06 was hyper threading enabled, and Overclocked to 3.6 Ghz, using very high speed ram modules.
That is one of the reason why it is so fast.

Thanks for the correction/clarification. It seems more consistent with my own experience. The fact that the Mac is dual processor makes little difference since AC doesn't make use of the second one. So it seems reasonable that a souped up P4 could outrun it. The graphics cards shouldn't be much of a difference between the machines since the tests you describe are almost all processor work; the graphics card mostly affects OpenGL.

I do wonder if there is something wrong with the Mac. You say it froze in the middle of a rendering? I have never (that I can recall) had ArchiCAD freeze during rendering, and I have run some very large files with all the settings maxed out.

You may have some bad RAM. I had some serious performance problems with a brand new Dual G4 1.42GHz machine w/2GB RAM because the vendor had installed some no-name flaky DIMMs. Once I replaced them with new memory from Crucial, I had no further problems.

Re: Which Mac should I purchase

JCovarrubias — Fri, 07 May 2004 15:58:04 GMT

Matthew wrote:
L. wrote:
I tested both by using the same model, and same rendering method.
The p4 out perform the g5. it wasn't to my expectation that the p4 performed better.
I have been curious about ArchiCAD performance comparisons between G5 and P4 Xeon machines. I am a bit dismayed to hear that your experience is that the Pentium is still faster. Have you done controlled testing? Could you post the files (or images of them) used and the results?

This adds to my concern that Graphisoft is neglecting their Mac users. Clearly, based on processor or system performance, there is no reason that the Pentium should be able to outperform the G5.

hello LS Chew:
What Build version of ArchiCAD 8.1 are you using with these test,
i.e. 1410 or 2256 or 2275?

Thanks.

Re: Which Mac should I purchase

Anonymous — Sat, 08 May 2004 11:49:17 GMT

Dear JCovarrubias,

I am using Archicad 8.1 r1. 1307.

Re: Which Mac should I purchase

Anonymous — Sat, 08 May 2004 11:56:01 GMT

Matthew wrote:
L. wrote:
I am sorry for given out a slight wrong information, according to my IT technician, the water cooled P4 3.06 was hyper threading enabled, and Overclocked to 3.6 Ghz, using very high speed ram modules.
That is one of the reason why it is so fast.
Thanks for the correction/clarification. It seems more consistent with my own experience. The fact that the Mac is dual processor makes little difference since AC doesn't make use of the second one. So it seems reasonable that a souped up P4 could outrun it. The graphics cards shouldn't be much of a difference between the machines since the tests you describe are almost all processor work; the graphics card mostly affects OpenGL.

I do wonder if there is something wrong with the Mac. You say it froze in the middle of a rendering? I have never (that I can recall) had ArchiCAD freeze during rendering, and I have run some very large files with all the settings maxed out.

You may have some bad RAM. I had some serious performance problems with a brand new Dual G4 1.42GHz machine w/2GB RAM because the vendor had installed some no-name flaky DIMMs. Once I replaced them with new memory from Crucial, I had no further problems.

Thanks for the ram advice. i got them replaced from apple center. it seemed well enough to handle more files without crashing as before.

Re: Which Mac should I purchase

James B — Mon, 10 May 2004 07:11:39 GMT

My computer at work has just been upgrade from a dual 867 to a dual 1.8 G5.

I'm noticing things to be alot faster, however in my first day with ArchiCAD I had 5 crashes, and not just your normal crashes but computer freezing and an error log being displayed on screen. Seems to only ever happen when ArchiCAD is being used.

Has any one with a G5 experienced anything like this? As I'm not sure if it's the computer or purely coincidental that ArchiCAD is running when it does crash.

Re: Which Mac should I purchase

Anonymous — Mon, 10 May 2004 11:10:47 GMT

James wrote:
My computer at work has just been upgrade from a dual 867 to a dual 1.8 G5.

I'm noticing things to be alot faster, however in my first day with ArchiCAD I had 5 crashes, and not just your normal crashes but computer freezing and an error log being displayed on screen. Seems to only ever happen when ArchiCAD is being used.

Has any one with a G5 experienced anything like this? As I'm not sure if it's the computer or purely coincidental that ArchiCAD is running when it does crash.

Five crashes is not normal. I would be surprised if we have five crashes in a month through the whole office. It's probably a lot less than that - I can't remember the last time I had a serious crash - in fact, we may not have had a single crash since upgrading to Panther a few months ago.

What you describe sounds like a kernel panic. It's possible that you have a system or software problem, but I suspect, once again, that it may be bad RAM. The crashes being more frequent in ArchiCAD is probably because it is likely the most demanding application you are running; especially when PlotMaker and BGArchiCAD are also working.

If you have access to TechTool Pro, try the hardware tests. Alternatively try running as many memory hungry programs as you can to see if you can crash the machine (Photoshop with a large file and whole bunch of complex filter operations could do the trick all by itself).