topic MieleBIM barely acknowledges Archicad in Modeling

MieleBIM barely acknowledges Archicad

KeesW — Wed, 10 Feb 2010 03:48:49 GMT

I got an exciting promo from Miele this morning. Told me that Miele BIM files were available for download. They included Autodesk Revit Architecture (.RFA), AutoCad Architecture (.DXF and .DWG), Autodesk 3ds Max (.3DS and .MAX), Other 3D software (.OBJ). It continued to say that BIM files can be imported into other software: Graphisoft ArchiCad, Nemetschek Vectorworks, Google SketchUp, DataCad and Bentley MicroStation.

Anyone would think that Autodesk invented BIM!

What is ".OBJ"?

Some obvious questions:
Where are ArchiCad's "PLN" or GDL objects?
What does Graphisoft have to do, or who do they need to pay, to be included in initiatives such as Miele's?
Is Graphisoft even interested in being involved?

Re: MieleBIM barely acknowledges Archicad

Anonymous — Wed, 10 Feb 2010 14:38:36 GMT

KeesW wrote:
I got an exciting promo from Miele this morning. Told me that Miele BIM files were available for download. They included Autodesk Revit Architecture (.RFA), AutoCad Architecture (.DXF and .DWG), Autodesk 3ds Max (.3DS and .MAX), Other 3D software (.OBJ). It continued to say that BIM files can be imported into other software: Graphisoft ArchiCad, Nemetschek Vectorworks, Google SketchUp, DataCad and Bentley MicroStation.

Anyone would think that Autodesk invented BIM!

What is ".OBJ"?

Some obvious questions:
Where are ArchiCad's "PLN" or GDL objects?
What does Graphisoft have to do, or who do they need to pay, to be included in initiatives such as Miele's?
Is Graphisoft even interested in being involved?

Sometimes I have the impresion that Nemetcheck/Graphisoft don't give a shit about Archicad.

Re: MieleBIM barely acknowledges Archicad

Anonymous — Tue, 16 Feb 2010 05:24:55 GMT

Makes you wonder if we as users forgot to pay our select agreements occasionally in protest that they might pay attention.

Re: MieleBIM barely acknowledges Archicad

Fran_ois Chatelain — Tue, 23 Feb 2010 16:11:08 GMT

Hi guys,
just for the record, OBJ is Maya/Wavefront file format.
Now this post encourages me to put forward what I've been thinking in the shower over the past few days 😉
Why don't we have in AC a proper add-on geared to handle file conversion/edition from external format to GSM/GDL?
Years ago we used to have GDLthingy (can't remember the name), got canned, then Abvent released ZoomGDL, got canned again, and more recently we've had MaxonForm and guess what, canned too. What does it tell you? Are we on our own or what? Not mentionning they were all add-ons one had to buy...
I still use MaxonForm daily along with AC9 (the only way to bring back maxon files as GDL objects), as well as ZoomGDl every now and then, to be able to convert/edit external files from manufacturers to usable AC objects.
I really think the Mothership should put their act together and provide us with that kind of ability built in AC, at no f*** cost. Digital age of information and communication, I don't think so...
Manufacturers are more and more inclined to provide us with 3D models in various formats, such as DXF, DWG, 3DS, OBJ, SAT, STL and even GSM for a few, and there's not much we can do with them (except GSM of course) unless we rely on external resources.
I really think this situation has to radically change, sooner than later.
That's my wishlist for AC 14 😉
Cheers
Francois

Re: MieleBIM barely acknowledges Archicad

Anonymous — Tue, 23 Feb 2010 23:41:35 GMT

I emailed the MieleBIM people when this was first posted to see if they had any plans to release a natively coded GDL object for ArchiCAD. Their reply was simply "Thank you for your enquiry. We shall consider your request, and get back to you with an answer shortly". I'll post again if I hear anything more back.

Have any of the AUS/NZ users emailed and asked the same question? The more enquires they get, the more likely they will do something about it.

Regarding the Add-on to intelligently convert Revit objects, as I understand it Revit families seem to rely on geometry being attached to 'reference' lines to give them their parametricity - in GDL the geometry itself parametricly adjusts. I don't even believe there is an equivalent of a reference line in GDL.

Nevertheless, I agree it would be in GS's best interest to overcome this problem as soon as possible.

Re: MieleBIM barely acknowledges Archicad

Anonymous — Wed, 24 Feb 2010 05:30:13 GMT

Peter wrote:
I don't even believe there is an equivalent of a reference line in GDL.

A reference line could b as simple as parameters to define the line. The trick is figuring out the code to mimic the functions.

Re: MieleBIM barely acknowledges Archicad

Anonymous — Mon, 01 Mar 2010 23:29:40 GMT

Revit families are modeled in a completely different way. they flex by pieces being attached to reference lines, then you add dimensions between the reference lines etc. So it would be quite difficult to build so sort of converter.

eg a block in GDL is BLOCK 2,2,2
to form that in a revit family (basically), you draw a square on a sketchplane & attach the lines to reference planes, then extrude it.

Plus lets face it why would Autodesk bother? ArchiCAD started this BIM thing, but Autodesk really do have a hold on it now (sadly)

In NZ, we hear everyday about a manufacturer bring out "BIM content" in Revit format. They are normally very surprised when i tell them that there are still more AC users in this country....
what's going to happen if they release a mac version of Revit?

Re: MieleBIM barely acknowledges Archicad

SeaGeoff — Wed, 03 Mar 2010 03:26:18 GMT

Autodesk certainly is not going to do it. Nor is Google. But Graphisoft had better do it themselves, and quickly. You’ve seen how much stuff is at Google Warehouse. And look how Autodesk Seek is filing up with manufacturer content.

The way Revit Families are created should not be the determinant. Underneath that UI is code, with parameters driving geometry and attributes, just like (but much more basic than) GDL.

Re: MieleBIM barely acknowledges Archicad

Anonymous — Wed, 03 Mar 2010 15:50:11 GMT

I'm bemused by Nemetschek. They have three architectural BIM programs (Archicad, AllPlan and Vectorworks) each doing their own thing with their own file format and there is no effective way of exchanging information between them (ironically DWG is the best option). As it is now providing content is not viable for any of the three programs because their individual user numbers are too low.

If the three programs had a common file format providing content would be a lot more attractive because of the total number of users (600K+) that would be accessing that content.

The current situation is just plain dumb. Its not very strategic and gives Revit an easy own goal.

Re: MieleBIM barely acknowledges Archicad

Anonymous — Wed, 03 Mar 2010 20:10:59 GMT

mikem wrote:
I'm bemused by Nemetschek. They have three architectural BIM programs (Archicad, AllPlan and Vectorworks) each doing their own thing with their own file format and there is no effective way of exchanging information between them (ironically DWG is the best option). As it is now providing content is not viable for any of the three programs because their individual user numbers are too low.

If the three programs had a common file format providing content would be a lot more attractive because of the total number of users (600K+) that would be accessing that content.

The current situation is just plain dumb. Its not very strategic and gives Revit an easy own goal.

Couldn't agree more. At the moment manufacturers only really want to provide Revit content, because if they provide AC content, they should also be doing vectorworks & allplan..... a more open format between those three products would make a huge difference.

Re: MieleBIM barely acknowledges Archicad

Bricklyne Clarence — Wed, 03 Mar 2010 21:17:39 GMT

Geoff wrote:
Autodesk certainly is not going to do it. Nor is Google. But Graphisoft had better do it themselves, and quickly. You’ve seen how much stuff is at Google Warehouse. And look how Autodesk Seek is filing up with manufacturer content.

The way Revit Families are created should not be the determinant. Underneath that UI is code, with parameters driving geometry and attributes, just like (but much more basic than) GDL.

I think a large part of Graphisoft's problem in this issue is somewhat two-fold. i.e it's primarily a question of Accessibility and Consolidation.
And on both counts it's self-inflicted, thanks to what seems to be their apparent overall marketing strategy and long term goals for the program.

On Accessibility:
It's been harped on ad infinitum, on these boards and particularly in the Wishlist sections regarding just how the whole GDL-coding methodology of creating Custom parametric objects in ArchiCAD is a major massive road-block allowing users to create customized libraries of intelligent objects which can even be shared or sold, so I won't beat a dead horse, especially if GS themselves don't seem overly concerned to correct this anytime soon or at all.

Other than to point out that, if I'm a parts manufacturer or a supplier for example seeking to provide digital content or a high quality (read : fully parametric) 3D model library or catalog of my products and have to hire specialists to model the parts (windows, doors, moldings, railings etc), on the one hand highly skilled Google Sketchup modelers are a dime a dozen thanks to just how accessible (easy to learn) and ubiquitous the program is thanks to Google. And while Revit may not be as easy to learn or master, it's certainly easier to create custom parametric objects in it than in ArchiCAD, and it basically boils down to the availability of modelers - something that Autodesk's aggressive marketing strategy is taking care of. Even custom quasi-parametric (read dynamic blocks) AutoCAD and ADT objects are more accessible thanks in part to AutoCAD's relatively more straightforward dynamic block creation interface, and we all know finding skilled AutoCAD users (even AutoCAD 3D modelers) is not a problem.

On the other hand, if I'm a manufacturer looking for skilled ArchiCAD object modelers - and I don't mean objects in the sense of 'dead' non-parametric 'slabified' objects, but fully parametric in much the same way a lot of the native library content is - which basically means GDL coders or at least fully proficient GDL-knowledgeable modelers, then things aren't as easy. At this point it becomes a question of cost - as in whether it's even worth it to provide such designer-specific 'smart' content to an apparent or seeming "niche" customer base.

On Consolidation:
This actually ties back to Accessibility, in the sense of how do you get your digital content (or provide access to it) to your potential future customer, once you have a library or catalog set-up of your products. While the 3D object repository they have here is decent and serviceable enough, for casual or infrequent users, it certainly lacks the organization, integration and interface necessary to allow both professional object creators and parts manufacturers as well as skilled freelancers to use it as a conduit to provide content to AC users. To compare it to what's out there in terms of consolidated and accessible online digital content, on the one hand you have Sketchup's Google Warehouse directly accessible from the program itself and an ever growing library with a wide range of objects and models. And then you have Autodesk's i-drop system which is a no-frills, no-fuss interface that parts manufacturer can integrate into their websites to allow AutoCAD, Revit and ADT users to directly drop 3D objects directly into their project files without having to worry about units, scale, whether it will work or not, or polycount.

Like I said before these problems are largely of GS's own creation or are self inflicted by their apparent apathy to address user bread and butter concerns. Custom object creation aside, assuming they were even able to provide that much requested 'holy-grail' Visual, No-GDL necessary custom parametric object creation tool that users have been craving since version who-knows-when, and even assuming manufacturers were able to benefit from this in providing their content in digital and parametric native ArchiCAD object format, how would they be able to get these objects to users in a either consolidated manner or at least accessible. With the object repository here on the forum being the closest thing to a Google Warehouse type system, and with GS's detached, arm's-length, 'we-don't-really-want-to-be-involved' involvement with this forum and it's users, how would any of this ever come together, if at all?

You ignore the small problems (and small users, and small user concerns) to chase bigger things, and it eventually comes to bite you in the butt in a big way down the road. Funny how these things work.

Re: MieleBIM barely acknowledges Archicad

Anonymous — Wed, 03 Mar 2010 22:20:11 GMT

I've alluded to this suggestion in previous posts, and in my response to GS survey, but here it is again for what it is worth:

Awhile ago VW have announced they are incorporating <<Siemens parametric technology>>. This gives some very powerful functionality (robust complex 3d modelling tools and relationships) that ArchiCAD also needs. Reading the Siemens blurbs on it, it would appear that this software has some traction in manufacturing etc, and by using this technology there is a clear opportunity for excellent interoperability between software that uses it.
Suddenly Nemeschek have the opportunity for common ground between their software & others....

I really think without such bold steps GS will slip into irrelevancy. Sure they will lose some money in royalties to Siemens, but developing from the ground up and properly* integrating it into ArchiCAD would be a huge job.

As for manufacturer parts - I really cannot see any change to the REVIT dominance - other than trying to develop a translator (the difficulties of this with a 'proprietary' software have been discussed elsewhere). However until ArchiCAD gets 'relationships' any translator would have a very hard time trying to produce a meaningful result.

*-I say properly after such a patch job was done with Lightworks that three versions of ArchiCAd later we still need to use Artlantis to have a reasonable workflow...

PS:
I forgot to add one of the biggest problems is that until GS sort out their whole library part thing - why bother? Every version of AC seems to require a whole re-write. Why so called global parameters have to be redefined between versions is beyond me.
An older part should still work, albiet with less functionality.
Parameters defining an old one should transfer seamlessly into the new one. Life should not be so hard!
The headache transitioning projects on the yearly upgrade cycle (to be proven) is nightmarish....

Re: MieleBIM barely acknowledges Archicad

Anonymous — Thu, 04 Mar 2010 00:30:12 GMT

sdb wrote:
mikem wrote:
I'm bemused by Nemetschek. They have three architectural BIM programs (Archicad, AllPlan and Vectorworks) each doing their own thing with their own file format and there is no effective way of exchanging information between them (ironically DWG is the best option). As it is now providing content is not viable for any of the three programs because their individual user numbers are too low.

If the three programs had a common file format providing content would be a lot more attractive because of the total number of users (600K+) that would be accessing that content.

The current situation is just plain dumb. Its not very strategic and gives Revit an easy own goal.
Couldn't agree more. At the moment manufacturers only really want to provide Revit content, because if they provide AC content, they should also be doing vectorworks & allplan..... a more open format between those three products would make a huge difference.

Couldn't agree more with your agreement.
The more I observe international business the more I see the importance of individuals or a small group of top execs with a strong (relentless) personality. Apple is an extreme example but look at how many times they have jumped from one system to another and dragged their developers and customers along with them. Autodesk deserves all of their success because there is more fight in that dog.
Nemetschek needs a VERY bold strategic vision if it is to remain relevant. I don't believe for a second that AC is going away but it shouldn't require so much justification from potential customers or content creators.
Of the 3 Nemetschek 'BIM' applications AC is the clear winner. We know it is not perfect but as a long time (14 years) vectorworks user I can tell you that VW is NOT BIM - but souped up 2D software. Allplan strangely has the best marketing story of the 3 with its suite of products - not to mention the powerful capabilities of Allplan Architecture itself (have a look at these videos). Also on a superficial level Allplan is a much better name and flows easily with 'Architecture', 'Engineering' etc. Unfortunately Allplan is too niche - big in Germany and some other European countries; but if a manufacturer is not going to model content for AC they probably haven't even heard of Allplan.
... which brings me to ArchiCAD. I have only been using it for 6 months or so and I am sure that I made the right choice (having looked at VW 'BIM', Allplan and Revit ... Bentley was off my radar). Graphisoft (or should I say Father Nemetschek) has a great product. Nem of course also has a truckload of other products under their belt. I feel that it is just a matter of vision and drive to put the best parts together to provide a powerful alternative suite to challenge the Revit's in the marketplace.
Graphisoft may have lost the marketing war over the acronym 'BIM' but they have a jewel in their trademarked 'Virtual Building'. 'Virtual construction' is coming up everywhere now - even with Sketchup!. My advice to Nemetschek - ditch the ArchiCAD name, put it together with the best of your other multidisciplinary products, and re-launch under a 'Virtual Building'-based brand ... even a name like 'Virtual Building Studio' - which is more all-embracing than Archi-anything
.... oh, and while you're at it buy Vico
Just my 2c

Re: MieleBIM barely acknowledges Archicad

Anonymous — Thu, 22 Nov 2012 02:30:09 GMT

Hi,
From quite a while ago, but we did actually end up getting Miele Appliances on board to support: Revit, ArchiCAD & Sketchup all available here: http://www.bimstop.com/profile/miele/