topic Re: New constraint angle not stored in Modeling

New constraint angle not stored

alexliz24 — Wed, 11 Mar 2009 14:34:10 GMT

Hi all, I've got this project which is not the straight-forward-perpendicular-plan, but rather it follows two different cartesian systems (i.e. there is an acute angle in the plan, with wall directions parallel and perpendicular to the two sides of that angle).

Trouble is, I can't seem to be able to use the mouse constraint to, say, draw a wall parallel to one of the sides of the building, then carry on drawing more walls parallel/perpendicular to that same side. I've looked into the Mouse Constraints & Methods dialog in Work Environment, and the 'Fixed angle' doesn't get updated after I've selected a new constraint. Is this a bug in AC12?

Many thanks.

Re: New constraint angle not stored

Anonymous — Wed, 11 Mar 2009 15:23:35 GMT

Make sure your guidelines are on and set correctly.

If you hover over a line or edge that is at the desired angle a guideline should appear along that line. You can then either use the guidelines that automatically appear parallel and perpendicular to the initial one or use the shift constraint to the same effect. You can also force a guideline at your current angle with the option/alt + a key combination.

If you want to constrain and snap in all the same ways that you can to the orthagonal then use the alternate grid (called the "Rotated Grid" in the US & INT versions) set to the desired origin and angle.

Re: New constraint angle not stored

alexliz24 — Wed, 11 Mar 2009 15:57:39 GMT

Hi Matthew,

This is all fine, except in order to draw multiple elements which are parallel and/or vertical to a given vector I have to start the new element, then hover over the master vector, wait for the guide line, then drag the mouse back to the new element's position and snap of the // guide line.

What happened to the old functionality, whereby each time you selected the Parallel or Perpendicular icon from the Control Box pallette, the element you selected afterwards entered its orientation to the Custom (Fixed) angle field in Options>Work Environment>Mouse Constraints and Methods...? That way you only had to enter the master vector (i.e. the one that you would be next drawing, say, perpendicularly to) only once, at the beginning of the process. You only had to stipulate a new master vector to change the orientation of parallel/perpendicular elements.

Thanks for the post, anyway.

Re: New constraint angle not stored

Anonymous — Wed, 11 Mar 2009 16:37:22 GMT

You are right that the old custom angle method is gone, replaced by the guidelines. This annoyed us old hands in the beta testing but I use the guidelines for so many things now that were more difficult before that the trade off seems worthwhile.

What does remain is the ability to lock the angle (and create a persistent guideline) with the option/alt+a.

Another thing that might help is to set a keyboard shortcuts to the "Set Rotated Grid" and "Switch Orthagonal/Rotated Grid" commands.

Re: New constraint angle not stored

alexliz24 — Wed, 11 Mar 2009 16:53:40 GMT

Matthew,

Matthew wrote:
This annoyed us old hands in the beta testing

I'm glad you were annoyed; means I'm not alone 😉

Matthew wrote:
but I use the guidelines for so many things now that were more difficult before that the trade off seems worthwhile.

Why should there be a need for a trade-off? Why not keep both methods?

Matthew wrote:
What does remain is the ability to lock the angle (and create a persistent guideline) with the option/alt+a.

I fail to see how that allows me to draw _multiple_ elements. After I've finished the first one, the angle is not locked anymore. I have to find the master vector again, then again press option/alt+a. Hardly efficient as a workflow...

Matthew wrote:
Another thing that might help is to set a keyboard shortcuts to the "Set Rotated Grid" and "Switch Orthagonal/Rotated Grid" commands.

This would be a work-around, but I still fail to see why the straight-forward method, as it used to be in previous versions, could not still exist.

Besides, I don't get this: the following is taken out of the AC12 Reference Guide pdf (p. 103 of 544, right-hand column, under the subheading Parallel and Perpendicular Constraints):

"You can draw mutliple perpendiculars or parallels by combining the relative construction method with the Mouse Constraints mechanism. When you define the reference line for drawing the single perpendicular or parallel element, its angle is automatically stored in the Options>Work Environment>Mouse Constraints & Methods dialog box as the Custom angle. You can then draw multiple parallel or perpendicular lines until the Custom angle is redefined either numerically or by activating the Perpendicular or Parallel method again."

It seems to me that this is exactly what used to happen in previous versions of AC (I can remember all the way back to v4.11...)

Two issues with the above: The rather minor one, that in the dialog box it's called 'Fixed angle' (not Custom...) and the more substantial one, erm... that it doesn't work like described!

Unless of course I'm missing something?

Re: New constraint angle not stored

Anonymous — Wed, 11 Mar 2009 17:02:28 GMT

alexliz wrote:
Matthew wrote:
but I use the guidelines for so many things now that were more difficult before that the trade off seems worthwhile.
Why should there be a need for a trade-off? Why not keep both methods?

I forget the reasons now but as I recall it was not possible/realistic from a programming standpoint.

alexliz wrote:
Matthew wrote:
What does remain is the ability to lock the angle (and create a persistent guideline) with the option/alt+a.
I fail to see how that allows me to draw _multiple_ elements. After I've finished the first one, the angle is not locked anymore. I have to find the master vector again, then again press option/alt+a. Hardly efficient as a workflow...

Agreed.

alexliz wrote:
Besides, I don't get this: the following is taken out of the AC12 Reference Guide pdf (p. 103 of 544, right-hand column, under the subheading Parallel and Perpendicular Constraints):

"You can draw mutliple perpendiculars or parallels by combining the relative construction method with the Mouse Constraints mechanism. When you define the reference line for drawing the single perpendicular or parallel element, its angle is automatically stored in the Options>Work Environment>Mouse Constraints & Methods dialog box as the Custom angle. You can then draw multiple parallel or perpendicular lines until the Custom angle is redefined either numerically or by activating the Perpendicular or Parallel method again."

It seems to me that this is exactly what used to happen in previous versions of AC (I can remember all the way back to v4.11...)

Two issues with the above: The rather minor one, that in the dialog box it's called 'Fixed angle' (not Custom...) and the more substantial one, erm... that it doesn't work like described!

Unless of course I'm missing something?

It looks like you've found a failure in editing of the manual. Both "Custom" and "Fixed" angles were available in AC11. The "Custom" option is now gone in 12.

Re: New constraint angle not stored

alexliz24 — Wed, 11 Mar 2009 17:09:32 GMT

Matthew wrote:
I forget the reasons now but as I recall it was not possible/realistic from a programming standpoint.

Sounds to me like someone in Budapest couldn't be bothered to write a few lines of code...

Matthew wrote:
It looks like you've found a failure in editing of the manual. Both "Custom" and "Fixed" angles were available in AC11. The "Custom" option is now gone in 12.

Dang!

Re: New constraint angle not stored

Anonymous — Wed, 11 Mar 2009 19:23:08 GMT

alexliz wrote:
Matthew wrote:
I forget the reasons now but as I recall it was not possible/realistic from a programming standpoint.
Sounds to me like someone in Budapest couldn't be bothered to write a few lines of code...

I give them a bit more credit. I know many of the gals and guys in Budapest and I assure you they are not whiling away their time sipping Tokai over long lunches by the Danube laughing at the all the foolish architects funding their lives of leisure.

They really do want to make ArchiCAD the best program that it can be within the constraints of available resources and the complexity of the task. I believe they would have preserved the function if they could.

Re: New constraint angle not stored

alexliz24 — Wed, 11 Mar 2009 20:07:42 GMT

Fair enough.

It seems puzzling, though, how they can write routines to do boolean operations and other bazillion calculations in 3D etc. and then do away with such a fundamental functionality. I guess they made it so obscure with all those local temporary guide lines (each of which can issue other temporary parallel/perpendicular/tangential/bisecting etc. guide lines, all on the fly) that it probably became too unwieldy a beast.

I am a programmer myself, though, and I understand the concept of available time/resources etc., as well as that sometimes you break something which is too difficult to fix right away. I hope that soon they can re-introduce it to the program.

Re: New constraint angle not stored

Anonymous — Fri, 13 Mar 2009 09:42:46 GMT

Hi Alexliz,

It is an interesting topic , worth thinking about it.

I have 2 suggestions for you until my native fellows resolve the problem in Budapest.

1. You could split the buildings into 2 hotlinks(pln) according to the 2 different coordinate system , bring them both into the master plan - which can be a 3rd different x-y coord. with all the drawn info excluding your buildings.Using the great tracing tools offered by ArchiCAD , you can set up a layout drawing of the master(site) plan - you can do this for each floor if you like - and bring it into your 2 hotlinks ,setting it up as a tracing reference.It means you can avoid having to use too many hotlinks , it automatically updates (no problem that it's sourced from another drawing) when changes are made to the master plan and speeds up your work as you deal with smaller files.This way you can have any number of different coord. systems merged.
2.If you are in an advanced stage of the project , probably a good and simple option is to set your grid to one of the two x-y direction and use the "paralell" tool of the control box to be able to repeat your specific direction quickly ,any number of times. I know it means 1 extra click in between the segments , but keeping your palette in the right position it takes only 0.3 s (much quicker than waiting for guidelines).

Re: New constraint angle not stored

alexliz24 — Fri, 13 Mar 2009 09:46:10 GMT

Hi Norbert, thanks for the post!

Do I take it you are connected to GS? Or are you merely expressing a wish similar to mine?

Re: New constraint angle not stored

Anonymous — Fri, 13 Mar 2009 10:48:19 GMT

No I'm not connected , but native Hungarian.

Yes , I think it was handy in old versions to be able to pre-set the guide angles , but at the same time there are so many alternatives to work around different issues , that we ask ourselves , whether we are just too comfortable and spoiled to find them - don't take it personal , I think all of us are the same sometimes - or we really need that extra tool.Further to this , I think ArchiCAD is trying to provide "limitless" solutions ( in your case any number of descartes coord.s in a project ) , whereas the "old school" was limited ,so has been opted out ( if you had to pre-set those guidelines for 10 different angles , you certainly would start getting confused) This is my opinion , probably GS has a different one.

Re: New constraint angle not stored

alexliz24 — Fri, 13 Mar 2009 11:09:05 GMT

OK, here's my take:

GS had provided us with a functionality which was time-tested and proven. It worked well.

At some point they introduced the Guide Lines principle, which also is useful and is getting to time-tested status as we speak. BUT...

Guide Lines should _not_ replace the Custom Angle. The Custom Angle was a valuable acceleration and productivity tool: it enabled us to do things that Guide Lines are not much good for (I don't think you or anyone else will disagree that Guide Lines are not best suited when you only have a preset direction vector to which you want to enter repetitively parallel or perpendicular elements; Guide Lines take time to form, and you need time to find the reference object, and all this is a time overhead for _every_ element for which you need them).

So, bottom line, for me, is: If the Graphisoft programmers stepped into a code quicksand patch, whereby they entered an area which was too complex for resolution prior to v12 release, that's fine (although not pleasant).

But let them establish this as a hickup; they must work towards resolving it; not just state that they are now replacing the Mouse Constraint method with the Guide Lines.

Our hard-earned money and product loyalty deserves much better than this.

Re: New constraint angle not stored

Anonymous — Fri, 13 Mar 2009 13:16:19 GMT

I totally agree with you, Alex! I miss Custom angle very much! Actually I fear the moment when I'll have to work on an non-orthogonal plan with two different angles!

Guide lines are a very poor replacement to an elegant and simple method which had proved itself over the years! I don't use guidelines at all because they are clumsy and time consuming to adjust. I am sad Graphisoft decided to follow the Autocad way with guidelines instead of preserving its method, which was unique in the CAD world as far as I know.

Next - expect F8 instead of Shift!

Re: New constraint angle not stored

alexliz24 — Fri, 13 Mar 2009 15:14:10 GMT

Hmm, I wonder if I should start a poll and submit it on the GS wish-list...

Re: New constraint angle not stored

Anonymous — Sat, 14 Mar 2009 09:00:44 GMT

No, don't bother! I started a poll it exactly after the function was removed and it had almost no responce!

http://archicad-talk.graphisoft.com/viewtopic.php?t=13795&highlight=angle

Re: New constraint angle not stored

alexliz24 — Sat, 14 Mar 2009 10:36:01 GMT

Your poll now has received 10 votes, 8 of which rank the issue as Essential! I think we need to spread the word!

I can't stress enough how astonished I am at the ease with which Graphisoft decide to remove functionality. I wonder if they're losing their touch with the real world of architects. It really is beyond me.

'nuff said. Bring it back, GS!

Re: New constraint angle not stored

Anonymous — Sat, 14 Mar 2009 11:39:23 GMT

Fair comment , I agree, the functionality was great.

The only thing we need to remember , that we should stress the benefits of the new versions , too. I personally don't support the idea of highlighting mistakes only and not having mention about the "astonishing" achievements(tracing tools ,documentation , collaboration etc.) that makes ArchiCAD an outstanding professional tool for Architects.Let's not get carried away , we all make mistakes.

Despite of this I will vote essential.

Re: New constraint angle not stored

alexliz24 — Sat, 14 Mar 2009 11:57:04 GMT

@Norbert:

I am not blasting ArchiCAD, not even Graphisoft. They're a great group of people. Having said that, they have done away with a functionality against all practical sense (from an end-user's perspective, just like you agree).

I wouldn't be seen dead in front of a computer running AutoCAD; but I must voice in the strongest way the need for features such as this one to come back into the ArchiCAD GUI asap.

Like I stated above, if they had some difficulty implementing it in time for v12 hitting the shelves, at least let them bring it back through an update patch, even _before_ v13 is due.

Guide Lines cannot replace the Custom Angle sticking to the last vector selection.