topic Re: Lisbon Municipality: DWF support in ArchiCAD in Modeling

Lisbon Municipality: DWF support in ArchiCAD

Anonymous — Thu, 18 Feb 2010 12:20:41 GMT

In November 2007 Lisbon's Municipality introduced Autodesk DWF as the standard file format for file sharing and interchangeability, with the approvals of a Law. As a result of that all projects on this municipality must be submitted in this format or else they will be rejected. Although we understand that this modernization process was somehow unavoidable, the chosen file format introduces several problems. In fact, because it is an Autodesk proprietary file format, several other software are unable to correctly meet the municipality standards (for example, also Autodesk's conversion software isn't available for Mac OSX). It's my conviction that by doing so the Lisbon Municipality has excluded and hurted several architects, including ourselves.

As they claim, the introduction of DWF and the consequent simplification of procedures is considered a success and is now being introduced in several other municipalities in Portugal and showcased in other countries.

We know that several costumers and consultants have provided feedback through, Archicad's reseller in Portugal, without results (specially in the Mac platform). We think that Graphisoft should provide a definitive solution to the problem in order to protect their customers. Meanwhile, if that's not possible, Graphisoft should negotiate an exception or transition period.

we've been told that there is a ongoing process against Lisbon's Municipality in the European Court of Justice, so far with no results. That's one of the possible solutions, other solution would be suggesting other similar non-proprietary file formats (DWG, PDF or IFC, like in Denmark), but I believe that the best solution should pass by the upgrading of Archicad to correctly export DWF, because it seems to me that Lisbon is not turning back on this decision.

The following are the problems we are facing when trying to meet the required standards:
- when publishing a layout the resulting DWF will be out of the paper;
- inability to export all layouts as a single DWF;
- layer visibility;
- we are requested to put doors and windows in separate layers. They also request that the zone name and the zone area are in separate layers but I think this one would be extremely hard to accomplish since in Archicad they are the same object;
- 1 unit should equal 1 meter;
- the most difficult part to accomplish is that they demand that the paper space is in the model space scale (one should be able to take the correct measurements in the layout, not the scaled ones - for example in 1/100 scale 1 cm would result in 1 meter not 1 cm).

So far the only way we found to do this is:
- export layouts in DWG using an appropriate translator,
- open the DWG and rescale it to the correct scale,
- finally use Autodesk's software in a PC and convert it to DWF.

Please understand that:
- We don't own a PC, I'm not sure I want one;
- We use Archicad and we don't know how to work with Autocad, weI don't want to learn it, and we're not definitely planning to buy their software.

We figure that the best solution is to upgrade Archicad with a translator, such as the one for DWG and DXF, where one could adjust the output of this file format to meet all of this requirements.

We hope that our contribution is appreciated.

Re: Lisbon Municipality: DWF support in ArchiCAD

Laszlo Nagy — Thu, 18 Feb 2010 13:11:59 GMT

This is bad news that they are enforcing DWF on everyone.
However, till things change you may want to get a very cheap PC under $500. There are free DWG to DWF conversion programs (I just searched the net) so you will not have to buy Autodesk software.

Re: Lisbon Municipality: DWF support in ArchiCAD

Anonymous — Thu, 18 Feb 2010 16:56:34 GMT

laszlonagy wrote:
This is bad news that they are enforcing DWF on everyone.
However, till things change you may want to get a very cheap PC under $500. There are free DWG to DWF conversion programs (I just searched the net) so you will not have to buy Autodesk software.

Or use Windows on a newer Mac under Bootcamp or one of the virtualization programs like Parallels or Fusion. I've had to do that for the AIA Contracts software, and it works pretty well. Other than the having to use Windows part.

Using Fusion and Windows XP. You can "suspend" the virtual machine so it's always ready to run without having to restart or boot up using Bootcamp.

Re: Lisbon Municipality: DWF support in ArchiCAD

Anonymous — Fri, 19 Feb 2010 12:17:25 GMT

Hi guys!

Let's see if I understand your proposals to solve this problem:
1. Buy a PC with MS Windows operating system for $ 500 and use a translator freeware DWG to DXF.
2. Buy and install MS Windows in Bootcamp and dual boot or buy Parallels or Fusion + MS Windows and deduce buy AutoCAD.

Get real, you guys!

Here is what I propose is this:

1. Buy a PC + MS Windows 7 Professional + Autodesk AutoCAD Revit Architecture 2010

Final Note:
So finally I have problems with ArchiCAD DWF resolved once and for all.

P.S.
We are looking for a proper solution not workarounds. We need URGENTLY to Graphisoft solve the problem.
We do not use other tools than the ArchiCAD in MAC OS or MS WINDOWS!

Re: Lisbon Municipality: DWF support in ArchiCAD

Laszlo Nagy — Fri, 19 Feb 2010 13:00:54 GMT

Look, this problem will not be solved overnight.
Our suggestions were intended to help you so you can get those things done.

So maybe the most cost-effective solution is to buy Windows XP and run it in BootCamp on your Mac, and use a free DWG-DWF translator.

Re: Lisbon Municipality: DWF support in ArchiCAD

Anonymous — Fri, 19 Feb 2010 13:24:13 GMT

I think exactly the opposite.
Graphisoft has the know-how to solve this problem overnight.
Their problem is they consider this a serious problem and solve it once and for all.
The solution to this problem needs to be in the Top-Priorities of Graphisoft, because it undermines the architects in what should be a Facilitator (good ArchiCAD DWF!) is being a Complicator (Bad ArchiCAD DWF!).

All is easy to do in terms of software development and everything (almost!) Can be done and for a large company like Graphisoft is easy.
It's just a matter of will.

I reported this directly to Mr. Laszlo Vertesi the current VP Product Development at Graphisoft R & D Rt.
Let's wait and see if we have an answer with the solution to this problem.

However thanks to all the suggestions, but I still think the solution should not go to buy a PC and use Microsoft and Autodesk software .

We "hate" Autodesk and Microsoft!
Why?
Answer: Because we are Apple MAC OS X users!

LOL

Regards,
VS

Re: Lisbon Municipality: DWF support in ArchiCAD

Anonymous — Fri, 19 Feb 2010 14:15:15 GMT

Actually this is not a graphisoft problem but a Lisbon municipality one. There are lots of other software packages out there that will not handle DWF. When the EU is all about open tendering, open formats etc it is totally beyond me how they could make a proprietary format mandatory - Portuguese taxpayers gifting a permanent revenue stream to an American company that can do with DWF whatever it likes - just incredible!

Re: Lisbon Municipality: DWF support in ArchiCAD

ternullomelo — Fri, 19 Feb 2010 15:55:07 GMT

amonle wrote:
When the EU is all about open tendering, open formats etc it is totally beyond me how they could make a proprietary format mandatory - Portuguese taxpayers gifting a permanent revenue stream to an American company that can do with DWF whatever it likes - just incredible!

I agree with you.
But i think it's also a Graphisoft and all other software developers problem. They should have made some noise and brought some lawyers in 2007...

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TERNULLOMELO ARCHITECTS

Estaleiro Naval Rocha do Conde de Óbidos 1399-036 Lisboa Portugal

T 00 351 21 391 59 98
F 00 351 21 391 59 97

http://www.ternullomelo.com

Re: Lisbon Municipality: DWF support in ArchiCAD

Erika Epstein — Fri, 19 Feb 2010 17:16:27 GMT

Ternullomelo,
I disagree. The Lisbon Architectural community should have been educating the city to help them make the right choice.

Re: Lisbon Municipality: DWF support in ArchiCAD

ternullomelo — Fri, 19 Feb 2010 18:40:41 GMT

Erika,

they (we) should have.
Some did, that is why there is a ongoing process in the EU... but Justice isn't fast enough and almost three years went by.

It's also Graphisoft and other software houses interest to block this procedure or adapt to it. I can always switch to other software... altough it seems to me a very stupid reason to do so.
It's also important to remember that Graphisoft declares that Archicad exports DWF...

If you put yourself in the Municipality position, it was really good for them: they have all projects data in digital format, they reduced their workforce, eliminated some potential corruption focuses (all their system revolves around DWF, including taxes, there is no paper, no human factor)...
Actually i have to agree that things are working much better there now... and i agree they had to switch to digital and that the systems works really good... too bad it's based on DWF.

I don´t get it... is it so hard to do this?
And if you all oppose so strongly to this, why do you still use DWG's, DXF's?
And by the way what would be "the right choice"? Maybe that's the most important question.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

TERNULLOMELO ARCHITECTS

Estaleiro Naval Rocha do Conde de Óbidos 1399-036 Lisboa Portugal

T 00 351 21 391 59 98
F 00 351 21 391 59 97

http://www.ternullomelo.com

Re: Lisbon Municipality: DWF support in ArchiCAD

Erika Epstein — Fri, 19 Feb 2010 20:07:45 GMT

Ah, well, all this is easier said than done. We are all struggling with this issue of pushing for IFC and interoperability so everyone can work smart in their software of choice.

Keep up the fight.

Re: Lisbon Municipality: DWF support in ArchiCAD

ternullomelo — Fri, 19 Feb 2010 20:19:17 GMT

The problem is that IFC isn't suitable for what they're doing. They use DWF because it's also based on XML. To understand the difference here is a good link: http://usa.autodesk.com/adsk/servlet/item?siteID=123112&id=2694038&linkID=9240615

Also i checked again and it seems that (at least according to Wikipedia!) DWF is an open format:

"DWF is an open file format. Autodesk publishes the DWF specification and makes available C++ libraries for any developer who wants to build applications around the DWF format, with the DWF Toolkit. Furthermore, DWF is based on other industry standards such as ZLIB, XML, and common image formats."

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

TERNULLOMELO ARCHITECTS

Estaleiro Naval Rocha do Conde de Óbidos 1399-036 Lisboa Portugal

T 00 351 21 391 59 98
F 00 351 21 391 59 97

http://www.ternullomelo.com

Re: Lisbon Municipality: DWF support in ArchiCAD

ternullomelo — Fri, 19 Feb 2010 22:16:23 GMT

Before you correct me.
I'm aware of ifcXML... but they still want the drawings... maybe one day we'll give them the model.

Re: Lisbon Municipality: DWF support in ArchiCAD

Anonymous — Fri, 19 Feb 2010 22:24:26 GMT

I agree that Graphisoft should offer better DWF support, both 2D & 3D. I know it feels a bit like sleeping with the enemy since Autodesk wants companies to support this standard to support its bid to create the PDF of technical documents, but as long as it remains an open standard I don't think this is so bad.

The situation in Portugal makes this even more urgent. The problem is that there isn't really any good alternative out there as far as I can see. I don't see municipalities taking BIM models for design review any time soon and there is no other 2D open format that supports world dimensions.

I don't know how difficult this would be for GS to implement, but it clearly is very important.

Re: Lisbon Municipality: DWF support in ArchiCAD

Erika Epstein — Sat, 20 Feb 2010 00:33:51 GMT

My mistake.

Re: Lisbon Municipality: DWF support in ArchiCAD

Anonymous — Sat, 20 Feb 2010 20:26:06 GMT

I too stand corrected, but agree with Matthew above

Re: Lisbon Municipality: DWF support in ArchiCAD

Laszlo Nagy — Mon, 22 Feb 2010 13:12:36 GMT

As far as I am concerned, I have not been debating the legitimacy of the request.
I just have some idea of how software development works and I know that from wishing for a feature to its implementation can take time - a lot more than a couple of weeks or months.
So I offered solutions for the meantime.

Re: Lisbon Municipality: DWF support in ArchiCAD

owen — Thu, 04 Mar 2010 06:06:44 GMT

DWF is an open file format ... Autodesk supplies the specs and C++ libraries. Which is more than can be said for DWG.

So as Matthew said .. i think this is a good thing. It is totally reasonable for government bodies to request data in a consistent format and at least they have settled on an open standard unlike the Revit format some states in the US are thinking about mandating for 'BIM' data.

It is up to Graphisoft to fully implement DWF if they want to be competitive - they are the only roadblock to their users on this subject.

I also note this DWF mandate is not just Lisbon but the whole of Portugal since 2008? ArchiCAD seems to be doing well in Portugal, so you would think Graphisoft would really be doing something about DWF. Another one of those 'what the hell are they thinking' moments ...

Re: Lisbon Municipality: DWF support in ArchiCAD

Anonymous — Tue, 16 Mar 2010 14:25:45 GMT

ternullomelo wrote:
I don´t get it... is it so hard to do this?

Probably harder than installing Windows on Boot Camp and running that free AD software.

Re: Lisbon Municipality: DWF support in ArchiCAD

Anonymous — Wed, 17 Mar 2010 02:06:57 GMT

I do think GS really needs to amp up their efforts on interoperability. I would like to see both 2D and 3D DWF support (in and out) as well as the ability to publish and hotlink all supported file types. A tall order I'm sure, but it costs me only a minute to wish for it.