topic Re: Suggestions about the way to create the floor filling in Modeling

Suggestions about the way to create the floor filling

Achille Pavlidis — Thu, 25 May 2023 14:55:32 GMT

I have a question about which is the correct way to insert the floor finishing...
In the picture i have posted there is a 15cm concrete slab with a 10cm floor finishing.
Which is the best way to do this on Archicad?

I have tried two different ways each has its problems:

1) Create a composite skin for the slab (15cm slab + 10cm flooring), place the walls (exterior and interior) at -0.10 of the story level, place windows sill measured from the wall base including a subfloor thickness of 0.10m
Pros:
The finished floor level corresponds to story level height set from the story settings, and all the objects positioned are on the correct height
Cons:
The stairs must be placed at -0.10 of the story level.
The elevations and 3d views need a lot of work because of the fact that the exterior walls overlap the slabs.
The walls are showing to lower stories because they are placed lower than the story they are.

2) Create a second slab for the floor placed on top of the concrete slab (one slab of 15cm for concrete + one slab of 10cm for flooring), place the walls (exterior and interior) on the story level, place windows sill measured from the wall base including a subfloor thickness of 0.10m
Pros:
The 3d and elevations are much easier to deal with as there are no extra lines - shadows to deal with.
The beams are placed on the height that is equal to the story level settings.
Cons:
The story level height corresponds to the concrete slab elevation and not on the finished floor
All the objects must be placed higher from the story they are.

I would like to know what is your approach.

Re: Suggestions about the way to create the floor filling

Dwight — Tue, 17 Mar 2009 18:59:05 GMT

I prefer the topping method since that is most realistic.

As for needing to place objects above the floor level - use gravity to slab. It automatically finds the highest slab under it.

Re: Suggestions about the way to create the floor filling

Anonymous — Tue, 17 Mar 2009 20:52:20 GMT

Dwight wrote:
As for needing to place objects above the floor level - use gravity to slab. It automatically finds the highest slab under it.

yes, but this hurts when dealing with doors and windows, not so complicated, just some attention .

Re: Suggestions about the way to create the floor filling

Link — Tue, 17 Mar 2009 22:47:39 GMT

Achille wrote:
2) Cons:
The story level height corresponds to the concrete slab elevation and not on the finished floor.

Why? You can make the story heights whatever you like and place the elements within them, no?

I'd choose 2 I think, as 1 takes more work: you'd need to use SEO to subtract the walls out of your slabs to clean it up and remember to anchor the doors and windows to the story rather than the wall base.

Cheers,
Link.

Re: Suggestions about the way to create the floor filling

Anonymous — Wed, 18 Mar 2009 10:05:22 GMT

Achillea, we use opt2 here as well although we place ffl at story level
so ssl will be minus whatever the finished floor thickness is. That way the walls start at the story, windows, doors ect all are associated with the story level.
On the section drawing we would have an ffl level and an ssl level relative to sea level to keep things consistent and clear.
Hope that helps

Re: Suggestions about the way to create the floor filling

Achille Pavlidis — Wed, 18 Mar 2009 11:03:18 GMT

Thanks for the answers!
As i see everybody chooses the second method of placing a second slab on top of the concrete slab...
The problem is that when you start a project, you start by a preliminary design where you place a slab that is thick enough for concrete and floor included. Then when you move on to final design and you have the concrete thickness and floor finishing you replace the solid slab with a composite one.
Instead if you do the "toping" you have to move downwards the concrete slabs.
And what about the walls (interior and exterior) you place them on the floor finishing?
I do not consider it quite correct, the walls must be on the concrete slab otherwise there is a lot of work to be done in correcting the sections.
See attached image (@Link no you do not need SEO, just select walls and bring to front, and you have the result you see on the image)
And i understand that you do not use the subfloor thickness option of doors and windows.

Re: Suggestions about the way to create the floor filling

Link — Wed, 18 Mar 2009 12:39:01 GMT

Achille wrote:
@Link no you do not need SEO, just select walls and bring to front, and you have the result you see on the image.
And i understand that you do not use the subfloor thickness option of doors and windows.

I can see how the display option may seem like a good solution, but it's really only a band aid solution at best. By it's very nature you are merely changing the display in that viewpoint. Any other sections or elevations would also require such display manipulation which is quite an overhead. The model is still incorrect however as you have two elements invading the same space. Just check your 3D Internal Engine Hidden Line view to see. The only way to make sure the model is accurate is by SEO.

As for the subfloor thickness, this is simply a marker setting and doesn't actually affect the model. Besides you don't need it. Why not make your 'preliminary' slab your floor finishing and create (by copy and paste) a structural slab underneath it. All you need to do is adjust the height of the story below and slot it in. Just because it is modeled in one story, doesn't mean it can reside in the space of another.

Cheers,
Link.

Re: Suggestions about the way to create the floor filling

Anonymous — Wed, 18 Mar 2009 13:23:35 GMT

Agree with Link on the creation of the structural slab by copy paste and move down...
External walls start at ffl and finish ffl above so so problems there in elevations and external 3d views. But you're right about the internal walls; if they have to start at ssl then the doors within the will have to be related to the story level and not to the wall base... but even if you have a composite slab, if you want the int walls to display correctly, you'll have place their bases within the zone of the composite slab and then... SEO or display... kind-a-s**cks
TBH, I place the int walls on ffl and as and when they are visible on my sections when we get to construction stages and drawings I will either patch them using a 2d patch created with the marquee (usually most int walls will have 1 or 2 different constructions so 1-2 objects that i can edit as and when required, for me, seems to be the least hassle... oooor, i will drag those inst walls down to ssl and adjust all the doors affected... both require a little fiddling but they seem to work ok and not created toooooo much additional work.

Re: Suggestions about the way to create the floor filling

Achille Pavlidis — Thu, 19 Mar 2009 09:31:35 GMT

Link wrote:

I can see how the display option may seem like a good solution, but it's really only a band aid solution at best. By it's very nature you are merely changing the display in that viewpoint. Any other sections or elevations would also require such display manipulation which is quite an overhead. The model is still incorrect however as you have two elements invading the same space. Just check your 3D Internal Engine Hidden Line view to see. The only way to make sure the model is accurate is by SEO.

Yes the 3d model will not be correct, but you will need SEO even with the second method...
Since the interior walls start at the concrete slab, you either create a floor slab for each room (cumbersome if you move any wall), or a single slab for the whole story that you have to SEO.
I do not see any difference.

Re: Suggestions about the way to create the floor filling

Erika Epstein — Thu, 19 Mar 2009 17:51:14 GMT

Achille wrote:

Since the interior walls start at the concrete slab, you either create a floor slab for each room (cumbersome if you move any wall)

If you are moving walls around, then you should be using the marquis tool. This will also move the topping slabs, ceilings etc.

Re: Suggestions about the way to create the floor filling

Petros Ioannou — Thu, 19 Mar 2009 18:41:40 GMT

Hi achille,
Option 2 sounds better since on a typical structure you can use a single concrete slab for the entire floor and use specific composite depending on the room and type of floor you want to use. (i.e parquet on living room vs tiles on bathroom floor)
This allows better section display and different cover fills for each room.
At the same time you can easily separate structural slabs from "finishes" (specially if you use a version prior to 12)
No issue with door placement, just elevate them according to the finished floor height. Also door/win dimension markers have a setting so that this elevation is not considered.

Re: Suggestions about the way to create the floor filling

Karl Ottenstein — Fri, 20 Mar 2009 00:51:08 GMT

I've been super busy this week and only skimmed the posts quickly now - but Option 1, if I understand it, works OK for me: I use a composite that represents the entire floor including finish (and use partial structure display to turn it on/off), and use complex profiled walls that are embedded into the finish and then solid-element subtracted. The location of the origin in the profile editor determines the base of the floor. So, if you want the base to be on top of the subfloor, then that's where you orient your fills in the editor - and deal with an offset value for doors/etc.

But, I've been using Option 2 on a current project which is a remodel, where I want to demo the current finish and insert a new finish, leaving the structure alone.

Whatever works? 😉

Karl

Re: Suggestions about the way to create the floor filling

Achille Pavlidis — Mon, 23 Mar 2009 12:34:49 GMT

@Petros:
I do not go as deep into detail to represent with different hatches the various materials. I think that in the 1/50 scale it would be too much. I just put a single hatch that is for the floor and its substrate (be it lightweght concrete for tiles or wood trusses for parquet). On the contrary, it is quite common to have different structural slab thiknesses on the same floor, which makes the use of composite slabs more logical, since you place the different composite slabs all on the same height, and have the concrete slab elevation vary accordingly to the finished floor level you want to achieve.

I haven't yet decided on which of the two methods is best ( i'm working with right now) this is the reason i started the thread... but the more i work with them i tend to conclude on the first one... even though almost everybody prefers the second!!!

Re: Suggestions about the way to create the floor filling

Anonymous — Tue, 24 Mar 2009 22:36:57 GMT

Achille, have you tried using the slab acsesories tool?
I think you can find it under help menu --> "goodies"
This topis is also a great interest for me