topic Re: Grouping in Modeling

Grouping

Anonymous — Thu, 23 Oct 2008 17:17:38 GMT

I'm just wondering how many people use grouping for certain elements. Ex: We often import sections through windows directly from the manufacturer and I group them so I don't have a boatload of unmanageable lines everywhere. I actually use grouping all the time, for everything if necessary.

I recently downloaded an example file from the ArchiCAD example files site and the whole project was not grouped. It was a mess. Someone on my office also has that tendancy.... . I;m just wondering how many other people out there are evil non-groupers.... just curious...

Re: Grouping

Erika Epstein — Thu, 23 Oct 2008 18:11:18 GMT

Grouping as you note is one of the powerful ways of selecting, and organizing. It allows everyone to work smart.

P.S. Re your comment about the sample project, I've noted that AUTOGROUPING is turned off in the AC templates. Turn it on.

Re: Grouping

Anonymous — Thu, 23 Oct 2008 18:16:46 GMT

Erika wrote:
Grouping as you note is one of the powerful ways of selecting, and organizing. It allows everyone to work smart.

Amen to that..

Re: Grouping

Anonymous — Fri, 24 Oct 2008 03:44:11 GMT

Hi Steven
Could you give an example of what you mean by "grouping" or explain how it specifically is used for "selection"/etc for the advantage you mention?
Obviously it is not something I have delved into yet.
I might just be one of those "evil non-groupers" looking to repent.
Bier

Re: Grouping

Laszlo Nagy — Fri, 24 Oct 2008 10:51:18 GMT

I usually group furniture elements in a single room (e.g. a kitchen counter) because they need to be copy-pasted into other stories.

Similarly, if I need to copy-paste a group of walls or columns between stories, I group them.

Or, if I build a Roof dormer that is composed of walls/slabs/roofs and which repeats several times, I group them and drag copies. Maybe a hotlinked module is better for this purpose, now that I am thinking about it because if it changes one has to redo the copying or has to modify each instance.

Re: Grouping

Anonymous — Fri, 24 Oct 2008 12:23:19 GMT

Grouping is great for those who work with lines more than the 3D objects/models. For example, when we cut sections, the "bosses" don't like how slabs, walls, etc come out in section. It would be perfectly fine for a small, undetailed project, but we usually use the wall tools, roof, etc as a background and draw over them with lines and fills. This allows us to have very detailed drawings. Do others work like this? So I group all the elements of walls, windows, floors, roofs, etc. together. This makes it much easier to move, copy, modify elements in the drawing. You have to be smart about grouping though as well. Some people group everything together and say "Hey, I'm grouping!". Doesn't work that way.

Once you start grouping, you'll never go back....

Re: Grouping

Anonymous — Fri, 24 Oct 2008 14:57:02 GMT

Thanks gentlemen.
Great ideas.
I'll let all that bounce around in my steel can head like a ball bearing today.
When the noise stops, I'll start thinking about how to develop a loosely nit strategy for grouping considerations.
Bier

Re: Grouping

Anonymous — Fri, 24 Oct 2008 14:59:51 GMT

Bier wrote:
Thanks gentlemen.
Great ideas.
I'll let all that bounce around in my steel can head like a ball bearing today.
When the noise stops, I'll start thinking about how to develop a loosely nit strategy for grouping considerations.
Bier

Grouping is SO IMPORTANT I don't know how people work without it....

Re: Grouping

Anonymous — Fri, 24 Oct 2008 15:02:16 GMT

Steven wrote:
Grouping is SO IMPORTANT I don't know how people work without it....

That is if you're not working completely in 3D, and use lines, circles, etc.

Re: Grouping

Stress Co_ — Fri, 24 Oct 2008 15:21:34 GMT

Ever notice you can't group labels??

Poll: Group Labels

Re: Grouping

Anonymous — Fri, 24 Oct 2008 16:47:37 GMT

Steven wrote:
Bier wrote:
Thanks gentlemen.
Great ideas.
I'll let all that bounce around in my steel can head like a ball bearing today.
When the noise stops, I'll start thinking about how to develop a loosely nit strategy for grouping considerations.
Bier
Grouping is SO IMPORTANT I don't know how people work without it....

It's great to group stuff in 3d as well and it helps a lot with 2d. If you group elements in 3d vertically then you'll be able to move entire group by moving just one group member on any storey.
Just in case somebody didn't know...

Re: Grouping

Anonymous — Mon, 27 Oct 2008 15:37:13 GMT

I think grouping can be a mixed blessing.

Sometimes I work on a drawing which someone else started, and find whole sections of it grouped, stopping me from editing. When I turn grouping off this results in having no groups at all - so I then have to 'ungroup' in steps - which is a bit alarming, as it's pretty well irreversable.

I also find quite often that after I've religiously made a group, I later turn grouping off to fix something else. Then I make multiple copies of my group - only to find the copies aren't grouped.

I think it's better to make modules or libary parts.

Keith

Archicad Ver 12 on Mac OSX 10.4.8

Re: Grouping

Anonymous — Mon, 27 Oct 2008 16:05:37 GMT

so I then have to 'ungroup' in steps - which is a bit alarming, as it's pretty well irreversable.

Why not to use " suspend group"??? Allows you to edit group members without ungrouping. I use it all the time and find very handy...

Re: Grouping

Erika Epstein — Mon, 27 Oct 2008 16:27:08 GMT

Grouping ctrl/cmd+G, suspending them opt/alt+G, nesting groups, all of these will help you work more efficiently. Modules and library parts are also invaluable. They all have their uses. For example, keeping sets of regularly used furniture as modules is good practice. Once in a file keeping like items, as Laszlo mentioned, grouped for easy moving and parameter changes is also good practice.

It's helpful within an office to have regular discussions about when and how to use all these work methods (as well as other Archicad topics). Many offices do this as a weekly meeting or over lunch. The program is so large, that each user discovers different aspects of it. Ultimately you will all use more of the program and use it more efficiently and your bosses will be happier.

Re: Grouping

Anonymous — Mon, 27 Oct 2008 20:06:14 GMT

Grouping is one of my favorites. But if I working in 2D I prefer an another tool. UNIFY. Line type objects with same base or end points can be joined together to a big polyline (Except of splines. Spline can be connected just with spline, and also changes the form of endings of the joints at both of splines wich can be helpful or descructive). It is useful for selecting and for modification. But haves a flaw. The main goal of UNIFY is to create ONE line and because of that it can join just 2 lines at same spot. And also the lines wichones becomes the part of the output polyline (or spline) changes theys color to same color of the longest polyline or arch (or spline) from the partaking lines. For my stile of projecting it doesn't matters because I UNIFY-ing just lines with same color. At the end the lasting big polylines I using to group anyway.

Re: Grouping

Anonymous — Tue, 28 Oct 2008 09:31:41 GMT

skardes wrote:
so I then have to 'ungroup' in steps - which is a bit alarming, as it's pretty well irreversable.

Why not to use " suspend group"??? Allows you to edit group members without ungrouping. I use it all the time and find very handy...

Sorry I wasn't clear, because I said 'turn off grouping'.

Suppose I'm working on a plan and I want to hand a bathroom layout. I discover that the originator of the plan has grouped the bathroom layout, so it's going to be easy to select the whole thing. However, when I select it - I discover it's a group within a group. The whole flat layout has been grouped! This means that, if I suspend grouping of the flat, I'll lose the grouping of the bathroom layout.

So I have to ungroup the flat first - and I hate ungrouping things that others have deemed fit to group!

Keith

Archicad Ver 12 on Mac OSX 10.4.8

Re: Grouping

Laszlo Nagy — Tue, 28 Oct 2008 16:18:02 GMT

Jooogyerek wrote:
Grouping is one of my favorites. But if I working in 2D I prefer an another tool. UNIFY. Line type objects with same base or end points can be joined together to a big polyline (Except of splines. Spline can be connected just with spline, and also changes the form of endings of the joints at both of splines wich can be helpful or descructive). It is useful for selecting and for modification. But haves a flaw. The main goal of UNIFY is to create ONE line and because of that it can join just 2 lines at same spot. And also the lines wichones becomes the part of the output polyline (or spline) changes theys color to same color of the longest polyline or arch (or spline) from the partaking lines. For my stile of projecting it doesn't matters because I UNIFY-ing just lines with same color. At the end the lasting big polylines I using to group anyway.

If you want to include Splines in the Unify command, first SPACE-click on the Spline with the Circle Tool (Magic Wand), which will create Arc segments and approximate the Spline with these Arc segments. Then use those Arc segments in the Unify command.
By the way, the color and line type of the created Polyline will inherit the attributes of the last selected element. The Info Box tells you which one it is or at least what its attributes are.

Re: Grouping

Laszlo Nagy — Tue, 28 Oct 2008 16:23:55 GMT

Keith wrote:
skardes wrote:
so I then have to 'ungroup' in steps - which is a bit alarming, as it's pretty well irreversable.

Why not to use " suspend group"??? Allows you to edit group members without ungrouping. I use it all the time and find very handy...
Sorry I wasn't clear, because I said 'turn off grouping'.

Suppose I'm working on a plan and I want to hand a bathroom layout. I discover that the originator of the plan has grouped the bathroom layout, so it's going to be easy to select the whole thing. However, when I select it - I discover it's a group within a group. The whole flat layout has been grouped! This means that, if I suspend grouping of the flat, I'll lose the grouping of the bathroom layout.

So I have to ungroup the flat first - and I hate ungrouping things that others have deemed fit to group!

Keith

Archicad Ver 12 on Mac OSX 10.4.8

I have an idea: the Selection Palette, this little used guy.
1. Ungroup the flat layout
2. Select the Bath group
3. In the Selections Palette, save it as a selection under a name
4. Undo the Upgroup command

You will regain the grouping of the Flat with the Undo command, and at the same time you will have the Bath group stored as a Selection. Whenever you want to use it, Suspend groups and apply that stored Selection. this way only the member elements of the Bath group will be selected.

Re: Grouping

Anonymous — Wed, 29 Oct 2008 12:13:58 GMT

Laszlo -

Thanks for the interesting tip. You're right - I've never used the selections palette. Could be worth bearing in mind.

However, I still wonder about how grouping should be best used, to avoid this sort of problem occuring. Like Erika, we have occasional workshops on use of Archicad / office standards - an extremely useful exercise - so we can hammer this out at the next one.

Keith
Archicad ver 12 on Mac OSX 10.4.8

Re: Grouping

Laszlo Nagy — Wed, 29 Oct 2008 12:19:13 GMT

Yes, I agree, we can and should always find better ways to do things.