topic Re: Story Settings questions in Modeling

Story Settings questions

Anonymous — Wed, 29 Oct 2008 15:44:23 GMT

I must be doing something out of order (hopefully). We are setting up our template and in V10 we set story settings for the 1st floor to be 100' elevation and 12' 'height to next' but I can't do that in V12. How can I? It seems I have to start at 0 elevation.

Thanks,
Michele

Re: Story Settings questions

Erika Epstein — Wed, 29 Oct 2008 19:04:27 GMT

I'm not having a problem with that here. Story settings ctrl/cmd+7?

Just your machine or everyones?

Re: Story Settings questions

Anonymous — Wed, 29 Oct 2008 19:19:30 GMT

I'm restarting Archicad right now (and updating) and hopefully it'll work just fine but just in case... is there a certain way I need to set up the story elevations? Do I need to start with the lowest one? Do I need to put the height in first.... I must not be patting my head not right while rubbing my tummy... or is it the other way around

Thanks,
Michele

Re: Story Settings questions

Link — Wed, 29 Oct 2008 22:22:45 GMT

Arghhh! This is a huge misunderstanding! Don't set up your story elevations as real world elevations. Please see my previous explanation on this subject here.

Cheers,
Link.

Re: Story Settings questions

Anonymous — Wed, 29 Oct 2008 23:02:24 GMT

Link wrote:
Arghhh! This is a huge misunderstanding! Don't set up your story elevations as real world elevations. Please see my previous explanation on this subject here.

Cheers,
Link.

ow, where can we get that story marker by Rod Jurich from?
its perfect for what we are use to doing in autocad (visually)

Re: Story Settings questions

Anonymous — Wed, 29 Oct 2008 23:15:08 GMT

Link wrote:
Arghhh! This is a huge misunderstanding! Don't set up your story elevations as real world elevations. Please see my previous explanation on this subject here.

Cheers,
Link.

just re reading you post about the levels.. what actual reason is there for not putting the project "40,000" in the air other then ,"you shouldnt" ??
im in AC12 and iv been setting all my projects up in the air to there real level and have not run into any problems??? is there somethign im missing?

cheers
Gene

Re: Story Settings questions

Anonymous — Wed, 29 Oct 2008 23:24:25 GMT

In our office we set up our story levels according to surveyed RL's. Storey 0 is always AHD (lowest point on survey)
Storey 1 Survey
Storey 2 basements
Storey 3 ground floor
Storey 4 floors beyond etc.

you can also have minus storeys so that your above storeys corelate to the storey setting
eg
storey 1 = level 1
storey 2 = level 2
etc

Generally I'd start at the lowest storey setting (RL+0.000) and work my way up. ArchiCAD has a habit of changing set dimension by internal calculation

Hope this may help in some way

Re: Story Settings questions

Link — Thu, 30 Oct 2008 00:28:01 GMT

Re: Story Settings questions

Link — Thu, 30 Oct 2008 00:35:46 GMT

GeNOS wrote:
just re reading you post about the levels.. what actual reason is there for not putting the project "40,000" in the air other then ,"you shouldnt" ??
im in AC12 and iv been setting all my projects up in the air to there real level and have not run into any problems??? is there somethign im missing?

cheers
Gene

Well basically it goes against the grain of ArchiCAD's modeling process. It all has to do with the model's relationship with the Project Origin. If we keep the project at the origin, the model is in one constant place the whole time. If we adjust the storeys, then the model is moving vertically away from the project origin.

I will admit that it is becoming less of a problem as GS gives us more flexibility in the way we can reference elements, place drawings, dimension in elevation etc, but it may still be an issue when exporting to other applications if the model is a long distance away from the project origin. Even AC itself can have trouble calculating the model if it has to use very large numbers.

There's probably a host of other issues (if anyone else wants to add to them ), but I just don't believe it is the way GS intended stories to be set up. Did you notice how tricky it is to actually enter real world elevations (ie. AHD) into the Story Settings dialog? You have to adjust storey heights and storey elevations in the correct order to get them just right. Why wouldn't you just keep the ground floor at project zero and simply adjust your reference levels?

Cheers,
Link.

Re: Story Settings questions

TomWaltz — Thu, 30 Oct 2008 00:39:29 GMT

GeNOS wrote:
Link wrote:
Arghhh! This is a huge misunderstanding! Don't set up your story elevations as real world elevations. Please see my previous explanation on this subject here.

Cheers,
Link.
just re reading you post about the levels.. what actual reason is there for not putting the project "40,000" in the air other then ,"you shouldnt" ??
im in AC12 and iv been setting all my projects up in the air to there real level and have not run into any problems??? is there somethign im missing?

cheers
Gene

There is some anecdotal evidence that placing models further away from Project zero slows down your file's performance. Further placement equals even lesser performance. Eight miles is REALLY far.

More importantly, I'd say not to place the model 40,000 feet in the air because it's easier to just use a working level. By placing a fake level to make your model that high, it already screams "workaround", which is silly when there's a feature that already handles that.

If the civil engineer tells you that you need to move your building up 1.3 feet two weeks before final CD's, you would find it much easier to change a working level in Archicad than it is to move the entire model and all it's associated annotation 1.3 feet. Changing the working level means making the change once, in a simple dialog. Moving the model means moving the model and then moving all your text and any other 2D information in every elevation and section in your entire project. Five minutes of work vs. five hours of work.

Re: Story Settings questions

Anonymous — Thu, 30 Oct 2008 01:07:33 GMT

I don't know how GS intended ArchiCAD to be used but at the end of the day we must have proper documentation. I mention this because in a section/elevation window floor level can be relative to real world RL's simply by using the dimension tool without having to enter custom dimensions (which are open to error).
Also it enables you to generate accurate sun shadow diagrams and how your project interacts with existing neighbouring structures.
I shouldnt be one to criticise any method of project set up as i have not experienced the benifits of starting a project on datum zero, conversions, importing/exporting etc... But so far, from forst hand experience documenting a building at real world RL's has not had a negative affect on our output.
I guess thats whats great about ArchiCAD, there are so many ways to do something.

-Cheers

Re: Story Settings questions

Anonymous — Thu, 30 Oct 2008 01:13:34 GMT

slowing down the file performance is probably a good point.. ill see if i notice any differance with my next job on zero.

as for 5 hours vs 5 mins.. i cant se how that works.. if i need to move the modle up or down it only takes a few seconds.

eg, if i need to move my job up 1000 and my bottom story is on 12500. all i do is change 12500 to 13500, everythgin above it re adjusts and all my anotation adjusts automaticly...

Re: Story Settings questions

Anonymous — Thu, 30 Oct 2008 01:18:04 GMT

Charlee wrote:
I don't know how GS intended ArchiCAD to be used but at the end of the day we must have proper documentation. I mention this because in a section/elevation window floor level can be relative to real world RL's simply by using the dimension tool without having to enter custom dimensions (which are open to error).
Also it enables you to generate accurate sun shadow diagrams and how your project interacts with existing neighbouring structures.
I shouldnt be one to criticise any method of project set up as i have not experienced the benifits of starting a project on datum zero, conversions, importing/exporting etc... But so far, from forst hand experience documenting a building at real world RL's has not had a negative affect on our output.
I guess thats whats great about ArchiCAD, there are so many ways to do something.

-Cheers

from what the guys are saying, you will still get accurate annotations and sun etc.. the negative you give the project height just tricks AC to think its up at the real level

Re: Story Settings questions

Link — Thu, 30 Oct 2008 03:13:39 GMT

GeNOS wrote:
Charlee wrote:
I don't know how GS intended ArchiCAD to be used but at the end of the day we must have proper documentation. I mention this because in a section/elevation window floor level can be relative to real world RL's simply by using the dimension tool without having to enter custom dimensions (which are open to error).
Also it enables you to generate accurate sun shadow diagrams and how your project interacts with existing neighbouring structures.
I shouldnt be one to criticise any method of project set up as i have not experienced the benifits of starting a project on datum zero, conversions, importing/exporting etc... But so far, from forst hand experience documenting a building at real world RL's has not had a negative affect on our output.
I guess thats whats great about ArchiCAD, there are so many ways to do something.

-Cheers
from what the guys are saying, you will still get accurate annotations and sun etc.. the negative you give the project height just tricks AC to think its up at the real level

That's right. And sure the elevation can dimension correctly but try this with one of your 'Real RL' projects: Drop all the storey elevations by 10 metres and then go check your elevation and section annotation. It will all be 10m above where it should be. Obviously this is not good, especially when you have many S/E's.

I think its pretty safe to conclude that reference levels are the best way to relate the model to real world elevations, not the Storey settings.

Cheers,
Link.

Re: Story Settings questions

Anonymous — Thu, 30 Oct 2008 05:23:09 GMT

I wouldn't know why you would drop a story by such a dramatic height but if such a situation arose, adjusting text and annotation would be simple using a marquee and dragging all misaligned items by the perscribed distance at once. Dimensions will automatically follow
Our "Real RL" project would be fine after minor adjustment.

If a project were drawn at RL0.00 onwards would that render "Storey Levels" feature within the Section Settings redundant? That tool automatically displays the values in the setup Storey Settings, so if a building were documented at RL0.000 but was infact surveyed at RL30.500 the "Storey Levels" display in all your sections/elevations would read RL0.000 onwards, not the surveyed value.

Also take into account master planning. If you were commissioned to oversee construction of a town centre and had to co-ordinate 10 buildings by 10 different firms and 100 sub consultants would you prefer to use a building module that was documented in real space (ie using surveyed x,y,z co-ordinates) rather than at project origin 0,0? It is indeed possible to do but would you want to?
You'd have to alter the storey settings anyway, so why would you not set up a project at the correct RL in the first place? It would be ideal if everyone used the same Origin

ArchiCAD is a 3D tool and it would be illogical to utilise it otherwise. You might as well be using Vectorworks (No offence Nemetschek)

Like I mentioned earlier, there are many ways to do the same thing and I'm not necessarilly saying that my way is better than yours (or vice versa) I'm just addressing the opening query as best as I can with my knowledge and experience. Who's to say what is "best". What may be "best" for you may not be sufficient for my application.

-Good day

Re: Story Settings questions

Anonymous — Thu, 30 Oct 2008 05:57:35 GMT

Charlee wrote:
I wouldn't know why you would drop a story by such a dramatic height but if such a situation arose, adjusting text and annotation would be simple using a marquee and dragging all misaligned items by the perscribed distance at once. Dimensions will automatically follow
Our "Real RL" project would be fine after minor adjustment.

If a project were drawn at RL0.00 onwards would that render "Storey Levels" feature within the Section Settings redundant? That tool automatically displays the values in the setup Storey Settings, so if a building were documented at RL0.000 but was infact surveyed at RL30.500 the "Storey Levels" display in all your sections/elevations would read RL0.000 onwards, not the surveyed value.

Also take into account master planning. If you were commissioned to oversee construction of a town centre and had to co-ordinate 10 buildings by 10 different firms and 100 sub consultants would you prefer to use a building module that was documented in real space (ie using surveyed x,y,z co-ordinates) rather than at project origin 0,0? It is indeed possible to do but would you want to?
You'd have to alter the storey settings anyway, so why would you not set up a project at the correct RL in the first place? It would be ideal if everyone used the same Origin

ArchiCAD is a 3D tool and it would be illogical to utilise it otherwise. You might as well be using Vectorworks (No offence Nemetschek)

Like I mentioned earlier, there are many ways to do the same thing and I'm not necessarilly saying that my way is better than yours (or vice versa) I'm just addressing the opening query as best as I can with my knowledge and experience. Who's to say what is "best". What may be "best" for you may not be sufficient for my application.

-Good day

from what the guys are saying, you will still get accurate annotations and sun etc.. the negative you give the project height just tricks AC to think its up at the real level

it will work exactly the same....
i hear what yoursayign tho.. i prefer to work in real levels.. but what they are sying is everythign will function exactly the same being on zero or up in the air.. only differance is when on zero u set you RL as a negative to "trick" AC.. everythgin will still be the same.. from what i gather.. the automated elevation and section stuff will still be right.. reading a real "rl" as u have fooled AC with your negative.

Re: Story Settings questions

TomWaltz — Thu, 30 Oct 2008 09:25:23 GMT

GeNOS wrote:
as for 5 hours vs 5 mins.. i cant se how that works.. if i need to move the modle up or down it only takes a few seconds.

How many elevations and sections have you created and how much annotation (text, dimensions, linework, hatch, etc) have you added to them? If none, then it's quick. It you have a lot, it takes a really long time.

It's those late-in-the-project edits when you have a lot of 2D on top of your model drawings that take a long time.

I forgot the other added benefit: if you use the Level settings, you can switch between Project Zero and actual elevation any time you want. You can call first floor "zero" in the project if you want in your documentation. Upper floors are shown with their distance from your project zero.

Re: Story Settings questions

Anonymous — Thu, 30 Oct 2008 17:35:35 GMT

sorry, i haven't read all the posts so someone may have already suggested this...
quite simply, project zero is ground floor ffl - ALWAYS.

when I have the survey and I know what real world level (Above Ordinance Datum) my ground floor ffl will be, I set a reference level (Archicad->preferences) of minus <whatever dimension> AOD

so if my gnd ffl is +3.650m AOD my reference level will be -3.650
then all level dims that are placed on the plans or the sections/elevations, I choose them to display the AOD value as opposed to project zero.

it works, it's simple and there is very little room for error.
HTH

Re: Story Settings questions

__archiben — Thu, 30 Oct 2008 20:59:11 GMT

xristina wrote:
quite simply, project zero is ground floor ffl - ALWAYS.

i prefer ground floor SSL and then put the finishes in on top - as it would be built. but it's horses for courses i guess . . .

~/archiben

Re: Story Settings questions

Anonymous — Thu, 30 Oct 2008 22:39:04 GMT

TomWaltz wrote:
GeNOS wrote:
as for 5 hours vs 5 mins.. i cant se how that works.. if i need to move the modle up or down it only takes a few seconds.
How many elevations and sections have you created and how much annotation (text, dimensions, linework, hatch, etc) have you added to them? If none, then it's quick. It you have a lot, it takes a really long time.

It's those late-in-the-project edits when you have a lot of 2D on top of your model drawings that take a long time.
.

also a good point.. but still doesnt take that long.. (select all move once the set dimention in each view) but anywho, im not gonna argue the point.. im gonna try out working on zero for my next project.

its funny cos teh australian grafisoft traning classes told us to set the project to the real level height