topic Re: Why does the world be a better place too live when use & in Modeling

Why would the world be a better place to live when use "BIM?

Anonymous — Wed, 05 Nov 2008 09:47:58 GMT

After years of working with calculate quantity of materials, produce detailed models, and so on, I really can't find why we should put all the information about a building in our cadsystem.

I can se why a wall, beams, columns are the right thing with right parameters in it because of communications with constructionsoftware.

When does we overworked our buildings because of this "new BIM" talk like a god from heaven?

I think BIM is enough most of time when we could have ID and dimensions from our buildingobjects, but this has many cadsoftware problems to give us, but they could give us an option to include model, price and so on... DOH!
It's not hard to calculate the quantity of 10 doors of different types manually, but it's hard to calculate the quantity of gypsym..

Re: Why does the world be a better place too live when use &

TomWaltz — Wed, 05 Nov 2008 11:42:51 GMT

It's simple: You put the extra information in if it helps you in some way. If it doesn't help, don't do it.

Re: Why does the world be a better place too live when use &

Anonymous — Wed, 05 Nov 2008 12:00:18 GMT

TomWaltz wrote:
It's simple: You put the extra information in if it helps you in some way. If it doesn't help, don't do it.

True... But my idea of this thread wasn't about how I should do, more about how the world look at "BIM". Last years, here in Sweden, we often hear older projectleader/companyleader with alot of power in buildingindustry that hasn't a clue about computersoftwares or even how to work with computers but have heard about BIM and then all they talk about how amacing BIM is. And that's a little bit scary...

Re: Why does the world be a better place too live when use &

Laszlo Nagy — Wed, 05 Nov 2008 13:30:32 GMT

Here is an example:
In the Construction Documentation phase, there is a change in the project design. Let us say the Door sizes change or the structural engineer calculates the final size of the load bearing columns and this is a 10000 m2 building. You have about a dozen sections and elevations, plus a lot of schedules, interior elevations, details etc.
How do you handle such a situation in 2D CAD? How much time will it require to make these changes in all your drawings?
In a BIM application, you make the changes to the model and update the sections/elevations/schedules and it is pretty much done. How much time does this save compared to a 2D workflow? And we are not even speaking about the consistency of drawings or the integrity of the model, by which I mean something is represented in this drawing this way and another drawing that way. In 2D CAD it is easy to make mistakes in such a situation. With BIM this is much less probable.

Re: Why does the world be a better place too live when use &

Anonymous — Thu, 06 Nov 2008 07:32:15 GMT

agree with laszlonagy.

manual work is very large for any modification especially in the very-final stage of a design. productivity and accuracy are relatively low when making drawings in traditional 2D CAD.

i was told a story about the reason of US government to push BIM. when there was 911 issue, all the parties are going to find the drawings of the building for the teams to do some actions, however, they could not find the final version of the drawings, there were many versions of drawings.

the story tells us that, building can be built by no drawings or not accurate drawings.

however, maintenance is one of the main points in BIM. also, before design stage, we can make good use of BIM to reduce the mistakes which can minimize the error during construction.

Re: Why does the world be a better place too live when use &

Anonymous — Thu, 06 Nov 2008 07:54:02 GMT

but what have a 3d modell with bim to do? nothing, and even if we use a bim model, who said that the building are gonna look like that in the end? it hasn't to do with if it's a bim model or not, it's only depending on the people who are involved in the project if the drawings or model is up to date.
for me bim is a descriptionmodel of the building and it could be done in microsoft excel. and that's what we have done in years.

I think I'm gonna look at the characters B I M with alot of distance and "wooohooo, take it easy, slow down, BIM doesn't do the job for you". I can feel a dejavue with when we introduce CAD and companyleaders said things like "yeah, the computer make the job for you, now we don't need you anymore or you could do alot more" but the drawingwork on a 2d cad doesn't go any faster than pencildrawings. It's when you have to change things and so on you will earn money/time.

(and I see that I'm spelling english at a swedish way to put words, sorry for that, I hope you understand me)

Re: Why does the world be a better place too live when use &

Mats_Knutsson — Thu, 06 Nov 2008 08:25:37 GMT

TurboGlider wrote:
but what have a 3d modell with bim to do? nothing, and even if we use a bim model, who said that the building are gonna look like that in the end? it hasn't to do with if it's a bim model or not, it's only depending on the people who are involved in the project if the drawings or model is up to date.
for me bim is a descriptionmodel of the building and it could be done in microsoft excel. and that's what we have done in years.

I think I'm gonna look at the characters B I M with alot of distance and "wooohooo, take it easy, slow down, BIM doesn't do the job for you". I can feel a dejavue with when we introduce CAD and companyleaders said things like "yeah, the computer make the job for you, now we don't need you anymore or you could do alot more" but the drawingwork on a 2d cad doesn't go any faster than pencildrawings. It's when you have to change things and so on you will earn money/time.

(and I see that I'm spelling english at a swedish way to put words, sorry for that, I hope you understand me)

Hej TurboGlider,

The tool or model itself is not BIM just like you say, it's what you do with it!!!

I spent almost an hour yesterday on our seminar to explain what you are asking for. What BIM is from the architects point of view, what different levels of BIM there are, what detailing there is in BIM, what differs the architects BIM from the engineers BIM. I think I did a fairly good job on that and I can do the same presentation at your office over lunch.

For me the key words are IDM (aka the new improved BIM-pimped CAD-manual). Process and workflow, what information to communicate and when and to/from whom. The aecbytes article by Webcores Jim Bedrick about modeling progression and level of detail is a great read: http://www.aecbytes.com/feature/2008/MPSforBIM.html

Internal BIM vs "the big overall BIM" is also very important.

Lunch me!
Cheers,
Mats

Re: Why does the world be a better place too live when use &

Anonymous — Thu, 06 Nov 2008 08:40:28 GMT

you are right, 2D CAD was amazing. but now we noticed that mainstream 2D and 3D CAD would not our solution. and further version of them would not too. why? because they are not exactly design for building!!!

you know, there are CADs specifically for vehicles, ships, etc. but we are using some CAD is not designed for our uses.

BIM is the future trend, i know it is the beginning stage, and there are a lot of room for development.

you know, the very important thing in BIM is the IFC file type, which is owned by the industry (not like the dwg file type), IFC can let the third parties software for calculations.

no one said BIM will be easy, but BIM can help us a lot and make good use of computer instead of giving us a digital pen and unlimited paper.

believe me, BIM will be the trends, you may doubt that the BIM may be not good enough for modeling at this moment, but the computer is going to be faster and faster with lower and lower price.

BIM will be the future.

Use effort for facing it instead of escaping it.

Re: Why does the world be a better place too live when use &

Anonymous — Thu, 06 Nov 2008 08:45:10 GMT

http://www.aecbytes.com/buildingthefuture/2008/atomicBIM.html

nice topic for explaining BIM. for your reference.

Re: Why does the world be a better place too live when use &

Anonymous — Thu, 06 Nov 2008 09:33:39 GMT

Sorry if I wasn't clear enough, my english fails too often. I know what BIM is and what it could do for us. But does the guys up there who sit on the money? A building is more than a model and drawings, it's a combination of alot of people, systems and so on, if one chain fails, all fails.
But I can't get it out what I'm after in this thread, I want a discussion about the word "BIM" and the dangerous about see "BIM" as our savior.

Re: Why does the world be a better place too live when use &

Anonymous — Thu, 06 Nov 2008 09:46:36 GMT

i understand what your concern is and discussion is good too.

1. BIM software is only for drawings and modeling with information which make the drawings and models coordinates each others. First, it reduce some kind of mistakes.

2. the IFC model which produced by BIM software which can be recognized by third parties software. then those softwares can analysis the model for us. it is unwise to only produce dwg and pdf .....

BIM can not sure 100% accuracy, but at least, it has more intelligence than the 2D and 3D CAD before.

BIM can not reduce our working time, but at least, it won't waste our working time in 2D and 3D CAD before.

think some questions:
1. architects hope to see more sections for presenting the inside of the building, if you are a draughtsman, do you love to draw 5 sections and a 3D model?

2. are you sure you can draw them accurately in 2D/3D CAD?

3. what if the architect change the design all the time?

4. still love to use 2D/3D CAD?

Re: Why does the world be a better place too live when use &

Djordje — Fri, 07 Nov 2008 14:31:02 GMT

Why is VB (BIM) better?

It coordinates. Depending on the software, it also talks to structural, MEP, energy calcs software. The main advantage? The computers know what is what. Human interpretation is not necessary. You can build the building in the virtual space, test it to earthquake, wind, whatever. Cost benefit is immense, especially if the BIM model is good enough to cover not only the design and the approvals, but the construction and the building lifetime.

Why is it not?

CAD mimics the way of doing things for centuries, therefore no new workflows, no new knowledge (knowing five commands of anyCAD is enough - line, erase, text - to produce a drawing) is necessary, no new hierarchies are established, the business is as usual. VB (BIM) puts all of this on the head - the architects are in charge again, the computer illiterate principals are threatened, the large companies can't flog the draughtsmen into submission ... horror! The ones above are not in control any more, the ones below have to keep on learning. Not in human nature, that tends to inertia.

Optimistic, huh?

Re: Why does the world be a better place too live when use &

Anonymous — Fri, 07 Nov 2008 20:00:19 GMT

TurboGlider wrote:
TomWaltz wrote:
It's simple: You put the extra information in if it helps you in some way. If it doesn't help, don't do it.
True... But my idea of this thread wasn't about how I should do, more about how the world looks at "BIM"....

IMHO right now the world of BIM/VB is pretty much limited to a small part of the world of design & construction. Even there, there is more buzz than reality. So I'm with Tom, it's a waste to to put in extra information if it doesn't benefit you. But that benefit can be as far a field as doing it to learn how to do it. Or to show a client it can be done.

But when you ask, "How the world could or would be a better place if BIM/VB was the norm?" you quickly move into dreamworld. The world where all that information does have value.....and you get paid a premium to put it in.

That is the world where the virtual building lives along side the real building, interacts with it. Where the light switch on the wall connects, not just with the light switch in the model, indicating whether is on or off, but also links to the exact model of the switch on the manufacturers website so you can order a replacement. etcetera etc.......

Someday over the rainbow........

Which in part is why we bother.

Dave

Re: Why does the world be a better place too live when use &

Anonymous — Wed, 08 Apr 2009 17:24:15 GMT

Hi all, this is my first post.

I think I understand BIM, but what's the software? Is Archicad BIM?
I use AC 12 and I model almost everything and take all my sections & elevations from the model. Isn't this BIM?

Is it just a case of this been taken further and entering more information about each element?
Are there BIM add ons for AC 12 or can it all be done within AC12

Re: Why does the world be a better place too live when use &

ares997 — Sun, 06 Sep 2009 20:56:38 GMT

BIM is a process by which we can give objects within a model properties (ie weight demensions model# and host of other things). Though archicad has that ability you have to break the Geometric design progression of the model between the designer, consultants, builders, at this time so you need more than #ac12 to be a sole BIM practitioner. Ac13 is a step closer to a one stop shop for BIM.

Re: Why would the world be a better place to live when use &

Anonymous — Fri, 11 Sep 2009 00:36:20 GMT

Hi,

BIM for some big developers' in today's (USA) market means that they think the Architects construction drawings should be detailed and thorough enough to replace shop drawings. Not my cup of tea. Mixing "means and methods" with design intent gives me schizophrenia.

Complete integration of the 3d model and design drawings that mimic a traditional construction drawing in a bi-directional work flow is what I want out of BIM.

AC-12 for its many faults does a fabulous job of providing a platform for this effort. I own Bentley's V8 Microstation, Triforma and Architecture platforms, but without a dedicated IT department or very technical person in house, it is not user friendly (and non-returnable). As a sole practitioner, AC-12 is my ticket.

Mark
PS In the last two years I also bought and returned DataCad, Chief Architect and SoftPlan, and still AC is my preferred choice. Just my opinion of course.
FYI, I design new houses, renovations and small commercial buildings.