topic Re: Method Query: Multi-Story Walls or Complex Profiles? in Modeling

Method Query: Multi-Story Walls or Complex Profiles?

Anonymous — Tue, 23 May 2023 16:08:18 GMT

I'm pushing as far as I can with this program. The office I'm working in isn't totally up on the 3-D capabilities and is still using this as uber-glorified drafting. So, I've really got to be efficient about my modeling.

I've been using Multi-Story walls (exterior walls and some interior), as sometimes my story heights change and getting all the bits back together has been difficult. I've had to mask lines that occur when walls aren't perfectly synced, and I feel like I'm limiting this problem with the multi-story exterior walls.

However.

Drawing molding in interior elevations makes me crazy. I'm totally in love with the Complex Profiler. Being able to set a chair rail and a base and a crown, and change everything at once if the molding changes... sweeeeet. I really like that the section of a well-built complex profile can get even closer to the actual detail.

But...

I worry that

A) I'll lose track of my complex profile library, as I'll have interior partitions of conditions A, B, exterior walls conditions A, B, C, etc etc etc.

B) the single-story walls won't line up as well.

Which way is best to model stuff that will eventually get into fairly fine details?

Oh, and... where's the best place to put the floor slab? At the top of the story below, or the bottom of its own story?

Thanks y'all.

Re: Method Query: Multi-Story Walls or Complex Profiles?

Anonymous — Wed, 05 Nov 2008 21:54:19 GMT

With complex profiles, I'm of the opinion that you can be too clever sometimes by trying to build everything with one profile.

I prefer to split the structure from the mouldings/decoration. I find this gives better control over what displays on plan, and reduces the number of different profiles needed.

I also tend to divide the structure down to single storey parts only as it's easier to manage when storey heights change. I only use multistorey walls when there are openings that will appear on both floors. Use trace and reference to ensure things line up over several floors.

Keeping track of all the different profiles is generally just a naming issue. Also using favorites or a visual legend of parts is very powerful as well. See here for example.

The level of detail to physically model to is goverened by the scale of the main sections, as it is easier to add fine 2d detail in larger scale drawings than it is to hide fine 3d detail to stop the main sections getting messy.

What floorplan(s) would you want the slab to display on generally? I'd probably put it on the foundation level, but I don't know the drawing conventions in your part of the world.

These are my own guidelines which seem to work for the types of buildings we do in the UK, but I'm sure others have different techniques that may work better for you. (I also reserve the right to change my mind if I find a better way! ) As they say - there is more than one way to skin a cat!

Hope that helps in some way! Good luck !

Re: Method Query: Multi-Story Walls or Complex Profiles?

Anonymous — Thu, 06 Nov 2008 01:48:33 GMT

Jocelyn
In my opinion, in our area, (mid Calif) top of slab (whether wood or concrete ) would be where the story begins, for any story, but putting the floor joists and sub-floor on the first floor layer seems ok.
If the first floor is wood then I would NOT put the floor joists or sub-floor on the foundation layer, but it would make sense if it was a concrete slab floor, to have floor slab on the foundation layer (since it might be a monolithic pour anyway; (personal preference I guess, as always).
On a first floor,(of a wood floor), the foundation layer would be the stem wall concrete and the mud sill.
Even though the foundation crew does not put the mud sill on, it just makes more sense to me as a design/builder, to list mud sill with the foundation layer, since my profile for stem walls has it on it already, which is not the case for concrete slab floors.
However, if the floors after that have a concrete layer, that would be part of the floor bellow's layer, since the next story starts on top of that.
I think that makes sense, let me know if I've confused you.
Bier
ps
Peters comments ring true for me also.
It's just more logical and makes for easier changes.
Except for basic mid level remodels having trim as part of
the wall profile speeds things along.
High end, I could see fussing with separate wall trims if clients are paying that kind of premium price.

Re: Method Query: Multi-Story Walls or Complex Profiles?

Djordje — Fri, 07 Nov 2008 15:11:30 GMT

Peter's advice should be included in the Installation movie of ArchiCAD ...

The best ArchiCAD related advice I have seen in the last year.

Hat off, Sir!

Re: Method Query: Multi-Story Walls or Complex Profiles?

Anonymous — Fri, 07 Nov 2008 18:35:30 GMT

Djordje wrote:
Peter's advice should be included in the Installation movie of ArchiCAD ...

The best ArchiCAD related advice I have seen in the last year.

Hat off, Sir!

Aww, Shucks!

I'm glad it made sense!

(The first nice thing anyone says, and I don't get a notification Email! )

Re: Method Query: Multi-Story Walls or Complex Profiles?

Anonymous — Fri, 07 Nov 2008 22:19:59 GMT

Peter wrote:
With complex profiles, I'm of the opinion that you can be too clever sometimes by trying to build everything with one profile.

I prefer to split the structure from the mouldings/decoration. I find this gives better control over what displays on plan, and reduces the number of different profiles needed.

I can definitely see your point... I don't want the base and chair rail to appear in the plan. I'm actually using a separate wall and molding profiles now, but I'm chopping up bits of chair and base molding profiles around doors and windows and keeping them from mating with walls, and it's kinda a PIA (tho it's still worth it not to have to draw all the crown/base/chair/etc molding into interior elevations with lines).

I wish you could assign different fills in the profile to different layers, so as to avoid the issue AND allow the profiles to be part of the wall and trimmed by the openings. Or if there were an option not to show selected fills in the profile out of a certain range of scales.

That would also reduce the level of detail capability between larger/smaller scaled sections, no?

Re: Method Query: Multi-Story Walls or Complex Profiles?

Anonymous — Sat, 08 Nov 2008 01:30:31 GMT

Jocelyn wrote:
"I wish you could assign different fills in the profile to different layers.."
Wow, I like that idea.
Bier

Re: Method Query: Multi-Story Walls or Complex Profiles?

Anonymous — Sat, 08 Nov 2008 04:23:42 GMT

Jocelyn wrote:
...I'm actually using a separate wall and molding profiles now, but I'm chopping up bits of chair and base molding profiles around doors and windows and keeping them from mating with walls, and it's kinda a PIA (tho it's still worth it not to have to draw all the crown/base/chair/etc molding into interior elevations with lines)...

It's not a pain the backside if you put the mouldings on a separate layer, and give that layer a different 'Intersection Group' number than the walls. Don't forget to update every layer combination with the new number. This way the mouldings will never interact with the wall automatically!

There is also no need to chop about the mouldings around doors and windows. You have drawn the mouldings using the wall tool, right? Place an empty opening in this 'wall' the same size as the door opening and it will remove any moulding covering the door!

The whole process is very quick if the mouldings are modelled together as you can simply magic wand inside the predrawn walls and the mouldings will form themselves to the shape of the room! No thinking or drawing on your behalf!

If you organise your complex profiles so that they are named per room, you can easily cut and paste individual mouldings into this 'main' room profile, try different options, adjust proportions, and all will be updated automatically.

Re: Method Query: Multi-Story Walls or Complex Profiles?

Karl Ottenstein — Sat, 08 Nov 2008 17:30:29 GMT

Bier wrote:
Jocelyn wrote:
"I wish you could assign different fills in the profile to different layers.."
Wow, I like that idea.

Well, not layers, and not separate walls as suggested by Peter (which then require wallholes, etc): but do note that in 12 you can assign three 'tags' to the fills (components) in a complex profile: "core", "finish" and <everything else>. (You can also assign these tags to skins of a composite.)

We have had 'core' in the past - used primarily for dimensioning purposes. 'Finish' is a new tag.

Assign your trim pieces as 'finish' and then use the Partial Structure Display option "without finishes" for your floor plan. Show everything including finishes in your wall sections.

Cheers,
Karl

Re: Method Query: Multi-Story Walls or Complex Profiles?

Anonymous — Sat, 08 Nov 2008 18:41:17 GMT

Thanks Karl, but I was aware of new core, finish settings in C.P.
The vapor-ware concept I was visualizing from Jocelyn's different layer's remark was something like this:
Client likes the base trim I'm showing, (so far so good), but she's not sure on style of chair rail, (wants to at least another option). But for crown molding husband just can't seem to make up his mind, so he want's to see three more styles and at least two more sizes for the two different rooms he's considering it for.
Now I don't want to make up all these combination locked into one C.P.,
or keep changing C.P. to all the combo's,
so I was thinking, why not turn off/on these casework trim combo's for quick change, via layers?
Yes I could make all these combo's for next time, but next time will be different combos from the trim book.
Well maybe there is a better way, just wondering about "what if".
Bier

Re: Method Query: Multi-Story Walls or Complex Profiles?

Karl Ottenstein — Sat, 08 Nov 2008 20:39:51 GMT

Bier wrote:
Client likes the base trim I'm showing, (so far so good), but she's not sure on style of chair rail, (wants to at least another option). But for crown molding husband just can't seem to make up his mind, so he want's to see three more styles and at least two more sizes for the two different rooms he's considering it for.
Now I don't want to make up all these combination locked into one C.P....

Glad you know about the "With Finishes" option, etc. 😉 Still very new to a lot of readers.

What you're describing, though, Bier is 'design options' - something talked about a length over the years here...with frustration. GS introduced a product called Change Manager a few years ago, or something like that, to support what you're talking about ... but without needing to introduce more layers. But, apparently it had issues with hotlinked modules and more and was dropped before I even had a chance to evaluate it.

The problem with managing change options with layers is that with your example above, you've already got 9 more layers...and as you know, they would have to be incorporated somehow into a bunch of combos - or else you'd manually update views in person with them. And, once they've decided, you've got to move the accepted stuff into the layers used in your placed drawings, etc...

Another possible way of dealing with the scenario you give is to use Attribute Manager. I know you said that you didn't want to redraw the complex profiles - but you would have to create the new trim profiles anyway. So, instead, just duplicate the base profile and copy/paste the trim profiles to create the various possibilities for the wall. Save each profile into a separate AAT file with the same index number as the profile assigned to the wall. Now, just over-writing the current profile with one of the other ones lets you show the different options...without having to change anything about layers, combos, placed drawings, etc. Still painful though, I agree.

Of course, if we had something more attuned to managing options, this would be much easier. Suppose instead of just tags like "finish" and "core", we had user-defined tags? Without going into a tag-only world, imagine that every element has a layer and a tag - layers doing what they do now, and tags adding an additional way to control visibility via a Model View Option - a direct extension of core/finish and PSD. So, a single profile could have elements tagged 'crown ver 1', 'crown ver 2', 'chair rail ver 1', etc. and a bunch of checkboxes in a MVO would determine which were visible. Demolition plans might be similar - we'd just have a WALL EXT layer - with wall elements tagged as 'demo', keep', 'new', etc.

Anyway ... for the original comment about separating mouldings into different walls, I still think that using the Finish attribute for those parts of profiles is the easiest way to make it happen in 12 and above. But, I really don't have an efficient workflow for managing multiple options as in your example.

Cheers,
Karl

Re: Method Query: Multi-Story Walls or Complex Profiles?

Djordje — Tue, 11 Nov 2008 16:17:43 GMT

Karl wrote:
What you're describing, though, Bier is 'design options' - something talked about a length over the years here...with frustration. GS introduced a product called Change Manager a few years ago, or something like that, to support what you're talking about ... but without needing to introduce more layers. But, apparently it had issues with hotlinked modules and more and was dropped before I even had a chance to evaluate it.

Actually, it was Options manager, and only in the US.

Change Manager is the software now produced and marketed by Vico, originally by Graphisoft, for the comparison of DWGs and PDFs - great for anyone who gets gazillions of revisions often, like I do for example. Think Trace with sliders, only freestanding and on steroids - integrated into the Project management workflow.

Back to the topic, yes, the 'design options' are very much needed - and maybe a good argument for persuading the powers that be to at least think about it is mentioning that you-know-who (the R word) has it.

Re: Method Query: Multi-Story Walls or Complex Profiles?

Karl Ottenstein — Tue, 11 Nov 2008 18:20:25 GMT

Djordje wrote:
Actually, it was Options manager, and only in the US.

Thanks for the correction. 😉

Karl

Re: Method Query: Multi-Story Walls or Complex Profiles?

Anonymous — Tue, 11 Nov 2008 21:36:46 GMT

Thanks for all the great insider info; karl and Djordje.
I will be looking at all of that as soon as I can.
What a wealth of info this forum is.
Without it, I may have given up on AC., it's just amazingly and frustratingly complicated, to enter as I did at this sophisticated level of AC, especially for single users without lots of funds for lots of high end training. As I like to say, I'm not a rich man.
The written manual should be AT-LEAST twice it's size/quality.
Anyway, after three partial years of AC, I think I'll make it, someday.
But as back up, and back to Djordje's statement, as conformation, I am getting some basic training on Revit as long term assurance against all the proverbial eggs in one idiom basket concept.
(My next lesson is how Revit deals without layers).
One more time; the killer for me is the stair tools ineptitude, especially at winders, bla, bla, bla,,,,,,
Bier
ps
But thanks for all you do do GS. But don't stop trying to impress us common folks.

Re: Method Query: Multi-Story Walls or Complex Profiles?

Anonymous — Tue, 11 Nov 2008 23:45:07 GMT

Karl wrote:
Well, not layers, and not separate walls as suggested by Peter... Assign your trim pieces as 'finish' and then use the Partial Structure Display option "without finishes" for your floor plan. Show everything including finishes in your wall sections.

AHA! I kinda thought this might be possible, as it seemed to be with the walls even in v11 (finishes/components visibility at different scales). Guess I didn't look close enough in the Profiler options.

Next time around, this is the method I'm runnin' with.

I'm also getting more comfortable with Layer Combinations, and Peter's suggestion has merit as well.

Thanks guys...

Re: Method Query: Multi-Story Walls or Complex Profiles?

Djordje — Fri, 14 Nov 2008 09:38:17 GMT

Bier wrote:
But as back up, and back to Djordje's statement, as conformation, I am getting some basic training on Revit as long term assurance against all the proverbial eggs in one idiom basket concept.
(My next lesson is how Revit deals without layers).

Hm ... no time for more training on the tool that you have, while starting on another? 😉 There is no long term assurance - you should build up your business, and the tools are something that makes your life and work easier, not the reason that you do the job.

BTW, Revit does not have layers.

Bier wrote:
One more time; the killer for me is the stair tools ineptitude, especially at winders, bla, bla, bla,,,,,,

Another 15 years and it should be OK 😉

Re: Method Query: Multi-Story Walls or Complex Profiles?

Anonymous — Sat, 15 Nov 2008 00:26:42 GMT

Thanks for you comments Djordje
For me:
As momma said....
Almost always, or always, having a plan "B" is a good thing.
Kinda like when you walk into a large building, know your alternative
egress, the one that not everyone is rushing to.
Thanks, but I knew Revit does not use layers, but will be looking a ways of doing "views" without them, (properties I believe).
You know, just for fun.
Kinda like being ambidextrous.
Could come in handy someday:-)
Bier