topic AC21 - stair's structure and finishing in Modeling

AC21 - stair's structure and finishing

alemanda — Wed, 24 May 2023 17:56:56 GMT

Hi,
in my workflow I usually draw the stairs twice. One stair is the structure and the other one is the finishing. I put them into 2 different layers.
during the stair editing if I disable the finishing, the structure actually takes the place of the finishing. Actually I need the raw structure ... I mean I need the structure as if the finishing is there ...
In order to get the proper structure geometry ... is it possible to define the structure of the stair as if the finishing was there but without finishing?
...or the only solution is just a SEO between the finishing and the structure?

Re: AC21 - stair's structure and finishing

Steve Jepson — Wed, 23 Aug 2017 20:47:41 GMT

are you using version 21 ?

Re: AC21 - stair's structure and finishing

alemanda — Wed, 23 Aug 2017 21:15:59 GMT

Yes ... my question was related to archicad 21
I'll give it a try

Re: AC21 - stair's structure and finishing

sinceV6 — Wed, 23 Aug 2017 22:29:34 GMT

Hi.
Looks like SEO would be the only option. Thread and riser gap will move structure backwards from the finish thickness, but will return once the finish is turned off.
I think this is an oversight of the tool in general: the finish part of the stair should hide when using partial structure display and the structure remain the way it is set considering the finish options. The structure returning to the place of the finish once it is set to off is actually correct... it is just the finish hiding that seems to be missing. There might be a setting somehwere...

One option you have is to assign an AIR BM to the finish part of the stair, but outlines will still show. A finish component that has thickness but no edges would need to be scripted.

Best regards.

Re: AC21 - stair's structure and finishing

alemanda — Wed, 23 Aug 2017 22:44:01 GMT

Thanks sincev6
SEO is the only option now

Re: AC21 - stair's structure and finishing

Ernest Atanasiu — Fri, 25 Aug 2017 12:39:33 GMT

Hi,

Until GS will fix this in the stair tool, try modelling the stair with a profiled wall.
You can set the finish and core materials and they will show as intended in the Partial Structure Display .

It's not a universal solution and you need separate layers from the actual walls with different intersection group numbers to avoid automatic cleanup.

The reason to use walls in favor of beams is that walls show treads in plan view.

Re: AC21 - stair's structure and finishing

Laszlo Nagy — Sat, 26 Aug 2017 22:00:17 GMT

When I was beta testing the Stair Tool I had this wish that the Stair Reference Surface locations was something we could specify, similarly how we can specify where the Reference Line of a Wall or the Reference Plane of a Slab is located.
One option would be where it is now: always at the Top and Front of Treads.
The other option would be: at the Front and Top of the Structure. Or in other words, below and at the back of the Tread/Riser Gap.
With the second option, when we turn off the Finish, the Structure of the Stair does not jump up and forward, which I think is something we many times need.

What do you guys think, should I make a wish about this and link it here?

Re: AC21 - stair's structure and finishing

sinceV6 — Tue, 29 Aug 2017 17:35:17 GMT

laszlonagy wrote:
...
With the second option, when we turn off the Finish, the Structure of the Stair does not jump up and forward, which I think is something we many times need.
....

Correct. The thing is that doing it that way will still leave the finish part of the stair as a setting and not a view option; and stairs that do have a finish (as a setting) still need to have a separate load bearing core that goes through structure engineering, needs to be documented separately and should coordinate with other consultants.

Best regards.

Re: AC21 - stair's structure and finishing

Laszlo Nagy — Tue, 29 Aug 2017 19:45:45 GMT

sinceV6 wrote:
Correct. The thing is that doing it that way will still leave the finish part of the stair as a setting and not a view option

Well, yeah, the ability of Stair components to react to changes in Partial Structure Display settings is another topic, which should also be addressed in my opinion.

Re: AC21 - stair's structure and finishing

alemanda — Tue, 03 Oct 2017 17:07:32 GMT

alemanda wrote:
Thanks sincev6
SEO is the only option now

While SEO solves the 3D representation, it doesn't solve the floor plan display.
In fact I see my structural stair not correct ...

Re: AC21 - stair's structure and finishing

alemanda — Thu, 05 Oct 2017 10:51:24 GMT

Finally I solved duplicating the "finishing" stair and modeling it so that the risers and treads of the "structural stair" were 30mm after and 50mm below respectivley the risers and tread of the "finishing" stairs

Re: AC21 - stair's structure and finishing

squall_tmo — Thu, 19 Oct 2017 09:10:52 GMT

laszlonagy wrote:
Well, yeah, the ability of Stair components to react to changes in Partial Structure Display settings is another topic, which should also be addressed in my opinion.

Yeah! It would be a great time saver! Just like the possibility to add a plaster skin to structure automatically!

Re: AC21 - stair's structure and finishing

alemanda — Thu, 19 Oct 2017 09:24:39 GMT

Actually the plaster skin is a big deal ...
Plaster seems to be an against-BIM item ... How to handle it consistently with original BIM approach?
Maybe this is another topic and deserves to be discussed separately ...

Re: AC21 - stair's structure and finishing

squall_tmo — Thu, 19 Oct 2017 10:22:18 GMT

Yes, you are right: it's probably the subject for another topic!

Anyway I think it can work if it works for the columns...but it surely need the 'partial structure display' improvement, so maybe it's even too soon to talk about it!

Re: AC21 - stair's structure and finishing

alemanda — Thu, 19 Oct 2017 10:35:57 GMT

actually I'm not a fan of partial structure display ... I think the most proper way is to keep structural model, architectural model and MEP models separated. This will allow a better documentation.

Re: AC21 - stair's structure and finishing

sinceV6 — Thu, 19 Oct 2017 13:50:32 GMT

alemanda wrote:
actually I'm not a fan of partial structure display ... I think the most proper way is to keep structural model, architectural model and MEP models separated. This will allow a better documentation.

Hi.
So... how did you end up solving the structure-finish issue?

And a little bit off topic... I also think that two separate models (structural - architectural - MEP) is a good way to coordinate and document a project. To me, partial structure display helps a lot in this regard, as it allows to compare the load bearing part of the architectural model with the structural model. The only thing I'm torn about partial structure display is the separate sets of annotations: sometimes it is great... sometimes it means duplicating annotations.

Do you ever use partial structure display? A bit of insight to workflows is a great learning resource.

Best regards.

Re: AC21 - stair's structure and finishing

alemanda — Thu, 19 Oct 2017 14:15:17 GMT

sinceV6 wrote:
So... how did you end up solving the structure-finish issue?...

External finishing is almost always modeled.

Internal finishing almoste never ... many times I use the zone stamp.

I never use partial display.
When I have to provide also the structural drawing I model the structure in the same file.

Annotations. Well, annotation are almost never duplicated. To do this I play with the layers/layers' combinations

Just today I was reading a document about layers and layers theory ... I'm thinking of changing my template basing the new system on a classification system (ominclass maybe) but it's huge work and needs time

Re: AC21 - stair's structure and finishing

sinceV6 — Thu, 19 Oct 2017 16:14:15 GMT

alemanda wrote:
sinceV6 wrote:
So... how did you end up solving the structure-finish issue?...
External finishing is almost always modeled.

Internal finishing almost never ... many times I use the zone stamp.

I meant the stair structure-finish issue... sorry.

alemanda wrote:
...
I never use partial display.
When I have to provide also the structural drawing I model the structure in the same file.

Annotations. Well, annotation are almost never duplicated. To do this I play with the layers/layers' combinations...

Layer combos work if you don't use partial structure display. Since each partial display has its own set of dimensions, it can be helpful in some cases and a nightmare in others.

Best regards.

Re: AC21 - stair's structure and finishing

alemanda — Thu, 19 Oct 2017 16:17:33 GMT

I wrote it some posts ago ...

Finally I solved duplicating the "finishing" stair and modeling it so that the risers and treads of the "structural stair" were 30mm after and 50mm below respectivley the risers and tread of the "finishing" stairs

Re: AC21 - stair's structure and finishing

sinceV6 — Thu, 19 Oct 2017 16:52:49 GMT

Yes... but didn't quite get what you did

What I understood is that you solved by using the finish stair twice, the second one used as "structural" and tread and riser parameters modified. Is this correct?

Thanks.