topic Re: Zones not recognising columns in Modeling

Zones not recognising columns

DGSketcher — Wed, 24 May 2023 10:41:40 GMT

I have just created a complex profile column to resolve a number of walls forming a messy junction which has worked as hoped, but as a consequence the zone partly contained by the column cannot resolve the space. I have since tried this with a basic rectangular column with the walls stopping either side rather than passing through and get the same result.

I'm pretty sure this arrangement worked with zones in previous versions. Can anyone else confirm if they have the same issue.

I'm on AC20 Build 3016 UKI FULL

My current work around is to draw a polyline acting as a zone boundary to bridge around the column between walls.

Re: Zones not recognising columns

David Maudlin — Mon, 05 Sep 2016 13:08:28 GMT

DGSketcher:

I don't know that this is the issue, but have you checked Project Preferences > Zones > Wall & Column Subtraction to see if the Column size limit is correct?

David

Re: Zones not recognising columns

DGSketcher — Mon, 05 Sep 2016 14:47:42 GMT

David:

Thanks for the response, hadn't checked but the column subtraction is set to default at >0.1m2 and 100%

I have since tried this with default templates simply creating a rectangular space with the default walls and placing a 1m x 1m column in the corner and pulling the walls back to the column faces. I got the same result in v19 & v15.

It would appear that AC will not interpret a column as a boundary object if an automatically generated zone boundary cannot be determined from other elements e.g. walls or lines prior to considering the impact of the column on the zone. I have subsequently identified that this also applies to the creation of fills with the magic wand.

I don't know what other think but when there is a setting in the column tool that indicate the columns relation to zones will be as a "zone boundary" you sort of expect it to work as part of a boundary?

Re: Zones not recognising columns

Barry Kelly — Tue, 06 Sep 2016 02:30:51 GMT

The zone will reduce around a column but only if the walls still form a continuous boundary.
So if your column has a stronger Building Material than the wall it will cut the wall away in plan.
Or add a zone boundary line as you suggested.

But I agree the column should act as the boundary itself - seeing as it has a setting to act as a zone boundary.
There may be times when you want to model wall between the columns rather than continuous wall with the columns cutting them.

Barry.

Re: Zones not recognising columns

Laszlo Nagy — Wed, 07 Sep 2016 15:37:33 GMT

DGSketcher,

Can you post an image of the exact situation? Maybe we will be smarter when we see the exact geometries.

Re: Zones not recognising columns

DGSketcher — Wed, 07 Sep 2016 17:08:55 GMT

Hi Laszlo,

I don't think you will be able to fix this one unless you can get GS to sort out the programming. Even simple columns are not considered part of an area boundary but their projection into the area will be considered according to the column zone relation setting.

It is easy to test. Simply form an open boundary with walls then use a column to close the boundary. The column is ignored and an error message of "no boundary found" is issued.

You can use PBC and pass a boundary creating element through the column and everything is ok but in my case I was creating a 3D "patch" for a complex wall junction that was too much of a challenge for AC using ordinary junction options.

Trevor

Re: Zones not recognising columns

Barry Kelly — Thu, 08 Sep 2016 02:48:23 GMT

Here is an image that should explain the problem simply.

So even though the columns say they are set as 'zone boundaries' they only do so if there are still walls that form a continuous boundary.

Barry.

Re: Zones not recognising columns

Laszlo Nagy — Thu, 08 Sep 2016 13:10:10 GMT

Yes, this seems to me like a case that was not considered and handled by the programmers. I will forward this issue to GRAPHISOFT.
Until it is fixed I would simply use "Zone Boundary" Lines drawn below the Column boundaries to achieve the desired effect.

Re: Zones not recognising columns

DGSketcher — Thu, 08 Sep 2016 15:46:45 GMT

Thanks Laszlo. I do think as our models become ever more complex the use of columns for the situation I have shown will be needed more often.

Re: Zones not recognising columns

Laszlo Nagy — Thu, 08 Sep 2016 16:22:19 GMT

Yes, I agree. ARCHICAD should be intelligent enough to handle such Zone Boundary situations.

To the developers' defence: it may not be such a trivial thing to do since Walls have a Reference Line and Zones can be set to recognize the Reference Lines of Walls. So when there is a gap in the Reference Lines of its bounding Walls, then it would have to check for other types of possible boundaries. May not be so trivial from a programming standpoint.

Re: Zones not recognising columns

sinceV6 — Fri, 09 Sep 2016 20:26:57 GMT

This is a very interesting thread.
I say that it would be really hard to implement such intelligence: columns may have very different shapes, so how would AC know which contour to follow to form a boundary?

Given that the column is used to solve a complex wall junction and that columns that have the same BM and PI will cut out walls, IMHO the solution is to extend the walls so their reference lines join, and then use the profiled column to clean up. The reference line will be maintained and AC fill find a boundary.

Best regards.

Re: Zones not recognising columns

DGSketcher — Fri, 09 Sep 2016 22:24:35 GMT

In theory the column is a point object but as soon as it is given an orientation and lines then it is potentially not so different to a short wall. I have every faith that the GS programmers will resolve this as they handle what I consider to be far more complex issues!

I did try your suggestion of connecting the walls and adding the column to clean up with PBCs but the connections resulted in higher priority materials displacing others which then looked a mess.

The other thing I tried was putting the column on an isolated layer but this then resulted in a contour line around the column.

Re: Zones not recognising columns

Katalin Borszeki — Thu, 13 Oct 2016 11:35:50 GMT

Hi ALl,

To the developers' defence: it may not be such a trivial thing to do since Walls have a Reference Line and Zones can be set to recognize the Reference Lines of Walls. So when there is a gap in the Reference Lines of its bounding Walls, then it would have to check for other types of possible boundaries. May not be so trivial from a programming standpoint.

As Laszlo said it very well, this is not a trivial development issue. We do know about it and it is in our database to be fixed, however, it is a project size development and as such it is in competition with other projects based on priority and importance. Thanks very much for your comments! Best, k

Re: Zones not recognising column

chrrev — Sat, 20 Apr 2019 04:41:44 GMT

I am experiencing the same problem with AC 22 today in April 2019. This is a particularly annoying problem since the energy evaluation tool only works with inner edge recognition.
I was wondering if a fix is in the works or if I am missing something...
The edge recognition should also work when the column is clad by the way. imho.