topic Re: Hotlink Wall Duplicate in Modeling

Hotlink Wall Duplicate

Lingwisyer — Wed, 24 May 2023 06:12:49 GMT

Hi all,

One of my hotlinked buildings has some odd things happening with some walls and their associated SOEs. These walls are part of a second hotlink. On the top floor, the wall, and other elements within this second hotlink, appear to be duplicating themselves. The duplicate is not cut by the SOE operations applied to the original.

Ling.

Re: Hotlink Wall Duplicate

Christophe Fortineau — Wed, 22 May 2019 11:31:27 GMT

Try to apply the "SOE operations" and "roof wall connection" preferably only in the master file

Re: Hotlink Wall Duplicate

Lingwisyer — Thu, 23 May 2019 01:44:03 GMT

Out of 6 variations, this is the only one that has this issue...

While workable, applying a SOE to a hotlink requires setting the entire hotlink as a target which can sometimes produce undesirable results. In this case though, the duplication of the wall is causing other issues with wall connections unrelated to the SOE.

Applying a roof-wall connection in a host would not work due to elements not being editable(?)

Ling.

Re: Hotlink Wall Duplicate

Ignacio Azpiazu — Tue, 28 May 2019 18:24:32 GMT

How is the duplicate getting generated? If it is an element from the story below getting saved or published into the module for the story above or the other way around (thus turning up in both modules) uncheck 'include elements from other stories shown' or something like that when publishing. The cloned element getting saved into 'the other' module would not be getting SEOed, and fortunately that would be warning you here of the duplicate you might not notice otherwise.

Re: Hotlink Wall Duplicate

Lingwisyer — Wed, 29 May 2019 01:20:00 GMT

The duplicate wall appears to be that of the wall being SOE'd. Single story content module, story to story offset.

Ling.

Re: Hotlink Wall Duplicate

Ignacio Azpiazu — Wed, 29 May 2019 23:10:22 GMT

Lingwisyer wrote:
The duplicate wall appears to be that of the wall being SOE'd. Single story content module, story to story offset.

The duplicate will not generate by itself. It can be duplicated already on the source file, perhaps with different elevation links to story (one unlinked, the other linked, overlapping in space), and you are not seeing it there, but it suddenly becomes visible when the module gets placed somewhere; or one of them is in a hidden layer but getting published nevertheless as part of a nested module; in these cases both walls are in the same module. Or it is being generated when a single element gets published twice into two different modules (because 'include elements in other stories showing in this one' is checked), and the one getting published into 'the other' module loses the SEO in the process (which is what I would suspect); in this case each wall is in a different module. (And we are assuming no wall got accidentally copy-pasted/exploded from the module into the host file.)

Re: Hotlink Wall Duplicate

Lingwisyer — Thu, 30 May 2019 01:59:07 GMT

Site Model - Building Model - Balcony Module

The walls in the balcony module are not linked to a top story. Layer combinations are the same between the building model and site model. Other building models that use a modified balcony module, which is the same content, just duplicated and offset, do not have this issue.

single element gets published twice into two different modules

Only 1 module file is being used.

loses the SEO in the process

I did think this might have been what has happened, but only 2 of the 3 SOE operations applied to the wall are lost. They are all applied in the building model. Wall-Slab and Wall-Beam has been lost, but Wall-Wall has been retained.

Ling.

Re: Hotlink Wall Duplicate

Ignacio Azpiazu — Thu, 30 May 2019 02:53:54 GMT

Lingwisyer wrote:
only 2 of the 3 SOE operations applied to the wall are lost. They are all applied in the building model. Wall-Slab and Wall-Beam has been lost, but Wall-Wall has been retained.

If you mean there are SEOs created in the host file between local and module elements, I think that is a bad idea. Any revision/redirection in the module, or replacement in the elements in the module, or in the local elements interacting with the modules, will kill them. In the rare situations where a SEO between a module element and some external element is absolutely needed I create a dummy SEO element on the module-creation file, and make sure the SEO layer is part of the module export layer combination. It is a duplicate, and manual work, but bulletproof, idiotproof, and easily traceable-debuggable.

Re: Hotlink Wall Duplicate

Barry Kelly — Thu, 30 May 2019 03:01:37 GMT

I am not quite following exactly what is happening here but is it a case of Priority Based Connections rather than SEO?
PBC will take place first and then the SEO will apply.

Are the material properties (strengths) correct in your module files but different in the host file?

Barry.

Re: Hotlink Wall Duplicate

Lingwisyer — Thu, 30 May 2019 03:06:42 GMT

PBC will take place first and then the SEO will apply.

The operand is on a layer with an Intersection Group of 0 so all intersections are ignored.

I create a dummy SEO element on the module-creation file

How does that work? Objects within a hotlink are "uneditable" and hence cannot be used as operators...

Ling.

Re: Hotlink Wall Duplicate

Barry Kelly — Thu, 30 May 2019 03:17:10 GMT

Lingwisyer wrote:
The operand is on a layer with an Intersection Group of 0 so all intersections are ignored.

Is the intersection group 0 in both the mod and host file?
I am just guessing here.

Barry.

Re: Hotlink Wall Duplicate

Lingwisyer — Thu, 30 May 2019 04:04:40 GMT

Figured out what the problem was...

It was to do with the Master Layer of the balcony module within the building hotlink. The top balcony was not on the Hotlink - General layer. This resulted in conflicts with layers regarding different design options. From this, I am assuming that the Master Layer of any nested hotlinks will change to match that of the host hotlink.

Ling.

Re: Hotlink Wall Duplicate

Ignacio Azpiazu — Thu, 30 May 2019 13:59:15 GMT

Master layers will remain what they are. Nested modules will keep their own master layer defined in the module creation file, and be placed on the host file within a module which in turn has its own master layer, so you have two nested levels of control for visibility and publishing.

Nested modules are best broken when publishing modules, keeping file production structure hierarchic, and I can't think of a reason that would justify keeping their link live. They create opportunities for huge management headaches and element duplications.

Master layer is best kept to Archicad layer for all cases unless strictly necessary (a case being when you need to be able to turn off unit interiors for certain drawings, such as site plans, building RCPs, finishes, building sections), because they become a management pain for view, publishing layer combinations.

[Outdated: Keep away from SEOs, trims, merged connections between an element in the module and an element outside the module, they quickly become unmanageable. You can create and publish them within the module, if necessary using dummy objects, making sure the SEOing elements are published into the module. Intersections and collisions (wall-wall, beam-beam, wall-slab, wall-column, slab-beam, etc.) between module and local, or elements of different modules, will always be fine; drafting needs to be clean, and sloppy drafting (in the host file, in the module, or in the module placement) will immediately result in lost junctions when any element ends up 1/10000000000th of an inch off. For this reason it makes sense to keep a 'project geometry' layer, and showing it (even showing it only) for placing the modules and moving them around, and for troubleshooting drafting errors.]

Re: Hotlink Wall Duplicate

Lingwisyer — Thu, 30 May 2019 14:45:49 GMT

What do you mean by a "project geometry layer"?

Re: Hotlink Wall Duplicate

Ignacio Azpiazu — Thu, 30 May 2019 15:04:12 GMT

A layer where you draw the main geometry lines for the project (as you would on a drafting table; this is not the 'structural grid', which will change frequently during the design process, and which can get messed up during drafting/modeling), and which you can always show as a reference for placing new elements or for troubleshooting (a junction is not working: which element is off?) or for mirroring, multiplying, etc. Within the module you have lines or hotspots in that layer too. Showing that layer only on the host file makes it very easy to catch and fix even the tiniest module placement error, and hugely simplifies placing, moving, multiplying modules. The corresponding geometry lines & hotspots in the module creation file in turn help assure the modeler is aware of the building geometry elements he needs to relate to, and simplifies troubleshooting the module model when something doesn't work.
In a multistory building you can create it on a workshop story and publish it as module into all the stories above. You could also have it on a worksheet and trace-reference it from anywhere, but on the model it works better, and you can show it in 'drafting' layer combinations, etc.