topic Re: modeling wall studs and plates in Modeling

modeling wall studs and plates

Dave Brach — Wed, 24 May 2023 06:20:20 GMT

what is the best way to model studs, plates, headers, trimmers, king studs, joists etc in archicad? ideally to create a schedule/take-off quantity for placing orders....

Re: modeling wall studs and plates

Erwin Edel — Thu, 02 Aug 2018 06:52:08 GMT

Probably not the best way (since I believe there are a few 3rd party addon solutions for this sort of thing), but I recently did this for wood framing with just beams and collumns.

I set up a layer for them with an intersection group different from the rest of my model (to stop unwanted connections), just used bring to front / send to back buttons to get my floorplan looking right and it was easy enough to schedule.

This was a very small extension to an exiting home though, so I don't think I'd do that for a large project.

I also had I believe 4 copies of a building material and a surface, to stop unwanted merging of fills and disappearing lines where elements were touching.

I used interior elevations with a layer combination showing only the framing for production drawings.

Re: modeling wall studs and plates

DGSketcher — Thu, 02 Aug 2018 13:00:48 GMT

You could try the updated curtain wall tool in AC22, although I doubt it will provide the quantity take offs you are hoping for due to the way it breaks down members onto a grid. Also depending on your frame profiles, some perimeter connections require SEO's to clean up.

If you want quantities then Erwin's solution will provide what you need but on a larger project, keeping everything dimensionally accurate requires a lot of care. Grouping, locking and even hot linking may be things to consider to suit your project.

Alternatively, if you are making the money and can justify the investment look at purchasing dedicated software as an add on or even independent software if that solution works best. I haven't used any 3rd party solutions so can't recommend any.

Re: modeling wall studs and plates

Erwin Edel — Thu, 02 Aug 2018 13:12:08 GMT

Yeah, for bigger projects (or more like 99% of all projects) we just go: it's a stud / woodframe wall, you're the contractor, you can figure it out.

There might be something on bimobject.com, they sometimes do little addon driven things for products. There's also something in the old no longer supported graphisoft addons (go to ARCHICAD Downloads from the help menu) for framing, I think.

I was guessing something like Cadimage would have this, but it seems they don't. Guess that leaves archiframe? Again: zero experience with this, we pretty much see this as the contractors 'problem'.

Re: modeling wall studs and plates

Steve Jepson — Thu, 02 Aug 2018 21:30:39 GMT

Dave wrote:
what is the best way to model studs, plates, headers, trimmers, king studs, joists etc in archicad? ideally to create a schedule/take-off quantity for placing orders....

Columns for vertical members. 1/2 slash for trimmers the X for studs.
For plate I use Roof Maker beams. They have better options than regular beams.
Sub floor is sometimes a Roof so I can generate the floor joists as rafters.
Roofs for soffit so I can use the Ctrl-Click thing, also roofs for sloped plate, fascia...

Re: modeling wall studs and plates

Steve Jepson — Thu, 02 Aug 2018 22:54:11 GMT

I don't think there are any 3rd party tools for this that are any better than what you can do with out them. Also, I don't fined the wall framing accessory in ArchiCAD useful either.
The trick to being efficient about this is to be using pre-modeled assemblies for door, window, and stair framing that you just tweak a little as needed. I like to place all the trimmers and kings studs first since they help me locate the doors and windows, then multiply the studs. I don't keep the trimmers, king studs, or cripples in my pre-modeled assemblies.

The reason to model the framing has very little to do with providing the Carpenter/Chippy with how-to instructions. However, it can reduce the need for skilled labor which also saves money. One less foreman to hire over the course of the project will alone save you the entire cost of generating the Framing Model.

There are several reasons to do it that will alone save more than the cost of doing it - in certain situations. Architects typically have no reason to do this since they do not benefit directly from the projects costs or cost savings. Contractors/Builders always do. The people who hire me do make Framing Models for their projects do it because it saves them a lot more than it costs them. This is my motto: "A good set of Plans will always save you more than they cost you." And that savings needs to be verifiable. Which is perhaps the biggest reason model the Virtual Building.

Another reason to do this is because it can significantly reduce the Engineers billable hours by making sure he does not need to spend hours trying to figure out a solution to the Architects 1/2 baked idea that almost works, but not quite. Also, this is the most efficient way to verify the Schedules. I usually place the Interactive Schedules right next to the framing diagrams and/or a 3D view of what is in the schedule. You can put a check mark on every part and the schedule to visually verify them. This is more important for some projects than others. Plans that include this kind of thing will produce lower bids from the subs who will not need to pad the bid for the unknowns (there aren't any).
To say nothing of the savings you realize with just routine communications. Everyone saves time and money from that.

Re: modeling wall studs and plates

Erwin Edel — Fri, 03 Aug 2018 06:35:20 GMT

We're a nation of brick layers though, so framework is not that common here

You either get the stuff prefabbed and assembled on site or the contractor just works it out based on the required dimensions and spacing.

Still odd that there isn't a more elegant solution for the markets where framework is very common.

Re: modeling wall studs and plates

felcunha — Fri, 03 Aug 2018 07:40:53 GMT

As Erwin said, you have Archiframe which seems to fit what you need (www.archiframe.fi). But it costs a leg!
If you really need and it can make you save lots of money you maybe should consider it...

Re: modeling wall studs and plates

Steve Jepson — Sat, 04 Aug 2018 18:18:28 GMT

Erwin wrote:
We're a nation of brick layers though, so framework is not that common here

You either get the stuff prefabbed and assembled on site or the contractor just works it out based on the required dimensions and spacing.

Still odd that there isn't a more elegant solution for the markets where framework is very common.

There is, but is it tightly controlled by the truss gusset companies.

https://www.mitek-us.com/software/ (for one of many examples)

The best software for this kind of thing is not something you can buy. You have to be a truss manufacturing plant get a license to use it. And to learn how to use it, you have to be sponsored as an employee of a truss manufacturing plant. They send you to a training school. And of course, you can never own your own copy of it.

Re: modeling wall studs and plates

Laszlo Nagy — Sun, 05 Aug 2018 08:09:53 GMT

With ARCHICAD 22 the renewed Curtain Wall Tool may actually be a good and feasible solution for creating the Wall Framing.

Re: modeling wall studs and plates

Steve Jepson — Sun, 05 Aug 2018 21:07:04 GMT

LaszloNagy wrote:
With ARCHICAD 22 the renewed Curtain Wall Tool may actually be a good and feasible solution for creating the Wall Framing.

For me, the Curtain Wall, like the Stair Tool, or any other tool is only useful to the extent that it works with an Interactive Schedule. Can you schedule the parts of a Curtain Wall ?

Re: modeling wall studs and plates

Eduardo Rolon — Sun, 05 Aug 2018 21:50:22 GMT

Steve wrote:

LaszloNagy wrote:
With ARCHICAD 22 the renewed Curtain Wall Tool may actually be a good and feasible solution for creating the Wall Framing.
For me, the Curtain Wall, like the Stair Tool, or any other tool is only useful to the extent that it works with an Interactive Schedule. Can you schedule the parts of a Curtain Wall ?

Looks like it is possible. Will be trying this approach soon.

Re: modeling wall studs and plates

DGSketcher — Tue, 07 Aug 2018 09:59:00 GMT

I have been using the (AC22) curtain wall tool on my current project and I'm quite impressed with what you can do. The use of multiple custom profiles within a panel allows much greater scope for creating the framing. Check out the YouTube videos for custom patterns...

Re: modeling wall studs and plates

Steve Jepson — Wed, 24 Oct 2018 20:26:40 GMT

LaszloNagy wrote:
With ARCHICAD 22 the renewed Curtain Wall Tool may actually be a good and feasible solution for creating the Wall Framing.

I have herd that rumor before. I have yet to see an example of it that is integral with Schedules.
Just a matter of time perhaps. In any case, generating the geometry for the wall framing using the Curtain Wall Tool would not be a sufficient. It is also important that the modeling be compatible with Schedules you don't need to be a Coder to script. The way I do it now with pre-modeled assemblies that just need to be adjusted for unique situations automatically populates very easy to make Interactive Schedules.

I have been keeping an eye on ArchiFrame for a while hoping it will at some point be a better way do what I need than how I am doing it now. The last time I tied it out I as not impressed enough to buy it. It might be better now, I don't know. I did find a link some of you might be interested in as part of how you evaluate ArchiFrame for your specific needs. https://www.archiframe.fi/files/ArchiFrameEng.pdf . Also, there is information there that may be able to glean for your own solutions.

Re: modeling wall studs and plates

KeesW — Wed, 05 Dec 2018 11:30:31 GMT

CadImage used to have a wall framing module but this was discontinued several versions ago. I don’t know why - may someone from that company can tell us. Their module produced schedules and framed wall elevations, etc. - exactly as we wanted.

Re: modeling wall studs and plates

Anonymous — Tue, 22 Jan 2019 18:29:55 GMT

Indeed Cadimage framing was pretty good for conventional framing. One could move window and door locations and the framing layout adjusted automatically. Schedules, cut lists, and diagrams could be easily generated. Don't know why they would ditch a pretty well programmed product.

As you may all know the current ArchiCad wall framing accessory addon is really buggy: 2D and 3D representation doesn't match up, window & door framing don't update correctly after moving ( king stud goes missing in most cases ), bad intersection control, can't even model a basic California corner correctly. Most importantly, it works for simple walls only, once you have a composite wall or a complex profile wall, things get way worse. It would be nice if Graphisoft can update the addon by fixing the bugs at least.

I suppose I'll adapt Steve's method of manually modeling the objects myself, since I'm currently using ArchiCAD 19 the new curtain wall tool is beyond my reach. It didn't occur to me that Rafters could made great wall plates, which shows that there are so many ways to get creative in ArchiCAD. Next time I'll trying modeling walls with mesh

Re: modeling wall studs and plates

Steve Jepson — Thu, 07 Feb 2019 10:52:49 GMT

alexwang32 wrote:
...It didn't occur to me that Rafters could made great wall plates, which shows that there are so many ways to get creative in ArchiCAD. Next time I'll trying modeling walls with mesh

The rafter also works better in many situations for Beams with an opaque background if you what it.
I hear people asking all the time for back ground fills to be made available for beams. It is one of the oldest requests I know of. But we can get that by using the rafter object which works pretty well as a beam. Clean up they say is important, however, when ever I model a beam I don't want it to clean up. I want to show which one runs past the other. But rafters can also be mitered. So I find them pretty useful.
Columns are still the best way to model studs I think. Rafters also display in section with an x I think. Whereas splitting a fill to make a Complex profile with that will display the x will generate (4) times the actual length in a schedule. One length for each fill. Found that out the hard way on a bad materials list.
My motivation for plate an beams that show the x is that I use no lines in my ArchiCAD files I want my sections to be per the model only. No lines. Unfortunately, DET-Stud 22 is an object I use a lot.

Re: modeling wall studs and plates

Anonymous — Mon, 02 Nov 2020 13:37:30 GMT

Steve wrote:
I don't think there are any 3rd party tools for this that are any better than what you can do with out them. Also, I don't fined the wall framing accessory in ArchiCAD useful either.
The trick to being efficient about this is to be using pre-modeled assemblies for door, window, and stair framing that you just tweak a little as needed. I like to place all the trimmers and kings studs first since they help me locate the doors and windows, then multiply the studs. I don't keep the trimmers, king studs, or cripples in my pre-modeled assemblies.

The reason to model the framing has very little to do with providing the Carpenter/Chippy with how-to instructions. However, it can reduce the need for skilled labor which also saves money. One less foreman to hire over the course of the project will alone save you the entire cost of generating the Framing Model.

There are several reasons to do it that will alone save more than the cost of doing it - in certain situations. Architects typically have no reason to do this since they do not benefit directly from the projects costs or cost savings. Contractors/Builders always do. The people who hire me do make Framing Models for their projects do it because it saves them a lot more than it costs them. This is my motto: "A good set of Plans will always save you more than they cost you." And that savings needs to be verifiable. Which is perhaps the biggest reason model the Virtual Building.

Another reason to do this is because it can significantly reduce the Engineers billable hours by making sure he does not need to spend hours trying to figure out a solution to the Architects 1/2 baked idea that almost works, but not quite. Also, this is the most efficient way to verify the Schedules. I usually place the Interactive Schedules right next to the framing diagrams and/or a 3D view of what is in the schedule. You can put a check mark on every part and the schedule to visually verify them. This is more important for some projects than others. Plans that include this kind of thing will produce lower bids from the subs who will not need to pad the bid for the unknowns (there aren't any).
To say nothing of the savings you realize with just routine communications. Everyone saves time and money from that.
2017-10-29_11-31-24.png

2018-02-13_10-58-48.png

2018-06-17_17-48-35.jpg

Looking at your post, you have a very neat surface for the Tyvek vapour barrier in the 3D example. Could you share how to achieve that surface please? I am in UK using AC24 INT.
Thanks

Graham

Re: modeling wall studs and plates

Steve Jepson — Mon, 02 Nov 2020 15:48:44 GMT

The Tyvek is applied to the wall sheathing the same way as any other texture. First you download an image file/texture and then add it to the Library. I like to add new textures/image files or project specific file to the Embedded Library via the Library Manager. Then you create a new Surface for it. This is where you Browse your Library or Embedded Library for the Texture/Image file you want to apply to your new surface. This is an very useful time saver for me in modeling as well. You can make a Surface with pictures of something you want to view while you are working in 3D views, put that texture on a wall and then you don't have to leave the 3D view to glance back and forth between views to see what you want. Also, this is the technique that is used to place a 2D floor plan image on a slab model walls in 3D on top of it. Lots of uses for getting image files into 3D views on some specific geometry. This is may require that you learn some new tricks for how to orient images and textures with precision or at least good control as they will appear on the 3D geometry. One of the reasons to use these textures/images in 3D views is for the sake of communications during the design process with people/clients that might not know what your talking about unless you explain it to them. It saves a lot of words when they can understand everything they need to know about it just by looking at a picture. The working drawings/plans are not just for the builder anymore. They are also for all the people involved with the process of bringing a building into the world. Also, ( at least where I am) the knowledge level of the people constructing the building and using the Plans for almost everything is pathetic these days. Shocking really. This translates to the need for more and more details and illustrations that would not have been useful or necessary a 20 years ago. I had someone call me from the Lumber yard just the other day saying that they could not complete my order because I didn't specify the length of the 16d coated Sinkers.

Re: modeling wall studs and plates

Anonymous — Tue, 03 Nov 2020 14:43:19 GMT

Thanks very much Steve. I followed your instructions and it worked!