topic Re: AC21 - Double winder stairs in Modeling

AC21 - Double winder stairs

Anonymous — Thu, 25 May 2023 14:44:22 GMT

Goodmorning, I'm a new AC user and I don't find a solution to create a stair with a double winder (start and finish). Any suggestions? Thanks you a lot.

Re: AC21 - Double winder stairs

fuzzytnth3 — Tue, 03 Oct 2017 16:04:51 GMT

Checkout this video scroll to about 3 minutes and he shows you how to do a winder

Youtube ArchiCAD video AC21 Stair tool

Re: AC21 - Double winder stairs

Anonymous — Wed, 04 Oct 2017 08:53:31 GMT

Thank you for the reply.
I've watched that video, but I'm still not able to create a stair similar to my attached image.

Re: AC21 - Double winder stairs

Hmooslechner — Wed, 04 Oct 2017 12:31:09 GMT

This image shows a stair, that definitely is not allowed in Austria, because it is forbidden to define the lines of the winder to one single point.

With our legalized rules, there has to be a minimum of 15 cm to step on at 20 cm from the inner border, which leads to a minimum distance of about 8-10cm for each riser.

So - from our Austrain point of view, such a stair is not possible and would be a little bit dangerous for old people and children.

If You are capable in reading german texts - point 3.23:
https://www.oib.or.at/sites/default/files/richtlinie_4_26.03.15_0.pdf

So - PLEASE DONT DO IT THIS WAY - make the stair bigger and safer!

BtW. I also think, that this form should be no problem to design in Archcad - but it isnt!

Re: AC21 - Double winder stairs

Anonymous — Fri, 06 Oct 2017 09:33:13 GMT

Thanks you for the answer.
I know that it's a strange and dangerous stair, but I have to model it because it's part of an existing building in the UK, but I didn't find the way to do that in ArchiCAD (with the stair tool).

Re: AC21 - Double winder stairs

Anonymous — Sun, 08 Oct 2017 02:18:00 GMT

This is as close as i could get.

Re: AC21 - Double winder stairs

Anonymous — Wed, 11 Oct 2017 22:25:27 GMT

This is actually an issue I'm facing too. Is it possible in ARCHICAD to do this? In Australia this type of winder is legal. How I have finally achieved it is editing the individual winders in the "Edit Stair" environment but it is rather fiddly.

Re: AC21 - Double winder stairs

Laszlo Nagy — Sat, 14 Oct 2017 22:21:34 GMT

Hi guys,

I looked at this issue to see if I can come up with a relatively simple solution and I found a way.

Check the attached image.
Notice that the Stair Baseline (thick blue line) is on the outside (right side of Stair).
Also notice that before starting to draw the Stair Baseline I selected the "Winder with Equal Angles" option for Turning Type, I selected the "Fixed Number of Going" option, with a value of 3, and I also chose the "Fixed Riser Offset" option, with 0 millimeters as value for both fields.

Then I drew the Stair Baseline in a way that at the second turn (left turn) I turned one tread earlier so now 1 tread is hanging out from the lower horizontal line of the Stair. I will later modify this to achieve the exact result.

Re: AC21 - Double winder stairs

Laszlo Nagy — Sat, 14 Oct 2017 22:24:39 GMT

Now I clicked the second Turning, chose the Turning Type Options command from the Pet Palette, and modified the 2nd Fixed Riser Offset value from 0 to 0.1 mm.
It looks like ARCHICAD will not construct the Stair if that value is zero, so I set it to a very small value which will not even be visible unless you zoom in very closely, plus it will not be visible in Dimension either because of rounding.

(Notice that after the change the left Dimension shows 1.5001 m. When rounding is set to mm, this will read 1.500 m.)

Re: AC21 - Double winder stairs

Laszlo Nagy — Sat, 14 Oct 2017 22:30:55 GMT

Now I select the left vertical segment of the Stair Baseline and use the Offset Edge command to offset the edge by the Tread Depth value (Going value - 300 mm in this case).
The horizontal section of the Stair will contain one more step, and the turn is correctly calculated by ARCHICAD since the last Riser is offset 0.1 mm.

Re: AC21 - Double winder stairs

Laszlo Nagy — Sat, 14 Oct 2017 22:34:24 GMT

And the final result.
Notice that now I modified Dimension Settings so the left length of the Stair Baseline shows 1.200 m, while the Measure command correctly shows that it is actually 1.2001 m long.

Re: AC21 - Double winder stairs

Hmooslechner — Mon, 16 Oct 2017 10:01:46 GMT

Lazlo:

I wonder if it would be possible for You to create a simple scree-capture-Video for Youtube with Your kind of solution. It would be much simpler to follow Your solution.
I myself made about 400 Youtube-tutorials until now and had the experience, that this helps most.

Graphisoft:

It is sometimes problematic (way too complex) to create simlpe winded stairs - what do You think of adding simple pre-sets of stairs for the often used solutions "analog" to favorits - favorits for stair-forms?
The program should save time and not spilling time, which could be used for more important drawing-tasks.

Re: AC21 - Double winder stairs

Laszlo Nagy — Mon, 16 Oct 2017 12:32:57 GMT

I won't have the time to do that now, but you are welcome to create such a video based on my steps, if you have the time.

Re: AC21 - Double winder stairs

Hmooslechner — Mon, 16 Oct 2017 13:47:38 GMT

Re: AC21 - Double winder stairs

Hmooslechner — Sat, 21 Oct 2017 10:02:09 GMT

I really tried it with the parameters from the first picture from Mr. Mirko, but it was not possible for me.

Lazlo - Your stair is way too big in length.

i tried to import the picture and scaled it to 1m stair-with first.

applied our level-hight first.

riser-hight: 290/14=20,71428 cm

measuring the wall-length - its about 4,1m:
middle-line-length approx. 410cm
step-with: 410/13 =31,54cm

I really tried it about 2 hours and then i left the topic for me at status "open" - not solved.

There seems NOT to be a fast solution.

If You try to get near step by step - it always stops you in the middle somewhere.

I did not make vidoes of my tries, because i did not want to blame Graphisoft so open (as i did in german versions of my problems with the new stair-tool) - but its way too complex in this form and Graphisoft should really think about offering some pre-sets for such simple often used stairs.

Some german tries:

https://youtu.be/FI_qXddeGto

https://youtu.be/oIOXVn1S9MM

I really would like to see Your simple solution on Vid.

Re: AC21 - Double winder stairs

Hmooslechner — Sun, 22 Oct 2017 08:54:48 GMT

Now i tried it once more a really bit of my spare time:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/e0q4y2lieb5ivod/Archicad%2021%20stairtool%20problems%20with%20small%20winded%20stairs.pln?dl=0

I got a solution, but its way too complex for normal users to get it working and its not completely correct till now.

This time, i screen-recorded the most of the session and it is in upload to youtube now the next few hours.

This following Vid is NOT A TUTORIAL!

Its an working-following vid about the conceptional problems with the new stair-tool in Archicad21.

It simply is not possible for me until now to get the tool working correctly in some difficult situations.

even- tries -stepb after step - the tool wortks just until an point and stops working then. bringing me unwanted solutions...

My suggestion: Graphisoft - leave the winding on edges completely!
Just look at every knot alone for windings - it would be much easier to understand and make the work-flow understandable much more for the User to be able to construct step by step.

For the user - its simply not possible to understand-why some working step works and other steps are limited short before a solution.

First video is failing without "the solution", just to show how a normal user will seek und tries step by step just failing:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L8oHlifIJWY

BUT second, the steps to the "solution" will follow...

This is also NOT A TUTORIAL!

The work-flow is much too complex for normal users and its NOT understandable, why some working-steps are possible, some others quite similar are not possible.

A User needs much to much time for constructing small winded stairs. Graphisoft: You can program much simpler helping ways to do things like this small stairs - please think over it once more!

Re: AC21 - Double winder stairs

Hmooslechner — Sun, 22 Oct 2017 12:48:57 GMT

The second part of my search for the solution:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bgMmr31y40s

Re: AC21 - Double winder stairs

Hmooslechner — Mon, 23 Oct 2017 06:25:05 GMT

Its possible to come the wanted solution very near , but the workflow it is just klicking around in an very erratic way. I updated the dropbox-file - but its an Edu-Version file so far and i could not get the same result by trying it once more...
Obviously there is a way, but second time at some point, i did something else, as i got near the solution and it was not possible for me to do it again...

Is it possible, that the stair-tool is not very stable?

Re: AC21 - Double winder stairs

alemanda — Mon, 23 Oct 2017 06:38:07 GMT

Hmooslechner wrote:
Graphisoft:
It is sometimes problematic (way too complex) to create simlpe winded stairs - what do You think of adding simple pre-sets of stairs for the often used solutions "analog" to favorits - favorits for stair-forms?
The program should save time and not spilling time, which could be used for more important drawing-tasks.

Yes. I think this is a work to be done by the local resellers/agents

Re: AC21 - Double winder stairs

Hmooslechner — Mon, 23 Oct 2017 16:10:41 GMT

now i have a solution which should be reproducable and the shortest possible.

I didnt count the tries but on a point of loosing all my intentions, i have got it working!

A clear moment of ZEN -smile!

Its really a "klicking-orgy" necessary to find the points to klick on to have a starter-geometry which you can move to the exact position.

Dont think, You can follow it without some lost time-tries!

But - dont give up - it is working at the end!

it is in upload for about one hour from now - wait untill its finiished.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_HOSJJvIIlI