topic Re: Archicad Corporate Management in Modeling

Graphisoft Corporate Management

archislave — Sat, 28 Nov 2015 03:01:37 GMT

I was wondering how Graphisoft is managed. Is it still controlled from Budapest. Is most all development done in Budapest still? I am wondering if it still has the same leadership that it has for years. I asked because it feels like Architect is developing very slowly. I have not seen any software developed for iOS devices except of r BimX viewers.

Part of me wishes Archicad would be bought out by a more progressive company or managed by a younger team perhaps.

Re: Archicad Corporate Management

Laszlo Nagy — Sat, 28 Nov 2015 14:04:56 GMT

Yes, Graphisoft continues to be controlled from Budapest and development is located in Budapest as well in Graphisoft Park:

http://www.graphisoftpark.com/buildings-list

It still has the same leadership. Here is the Board of Directors and the Executive Team of Graphisoft. Most of these guys have been with the company for 15-20-25 years.

http://www.graphisoft.com/info/about_graphisoft/board_of_directors/

http://www.graphisoft.com/info/about_graphisoft/executive-team/

The pace of ARCHICAD development of course could always be faster. That is the case with almost any software.
What is your exact concern? Number of apps for iOS or something else?

Re: Archicad Corporate Management

archislave — Sat, 28 Nov 2015 15:49:51 GMT

My concern is the lack of development of Archicad and the absence of any creation oriented iOS apps. I asked about Graphisoft management because I have long suspected that they are like a dynasty or the old Kremlin who whistle past the graveyard and deny the world is changing around them. I think most executives have been in control for many years and are close to retirement. They have no incentive to really push development. They have given themselves a lifetime right to this company and are chasing the easy way.

I hope they are grooming internal leaders to take over some day. Maybe these younger people are itching to change Graphisoft. I think the market will continue to erode for Graphisoft. It is a shame they are not challenging Autodesk. It seems like Autodesk is the only serious cad company these days. However, they only evolve Revit and focus on engineering software. Take for instance their MCAD Fusion 360. They have an small attempt with

Architectural software in FormIt. It is very basic at this point. Not sure if they intend to make it the Fusion 360 for Architecture...

I first bought archicad in 2005 and stopped upgrading at v16. I see no reason to upgrade for my small practice. I was active on here years ago In fact I see you have the same profile picture from over ten years ago

Re: Archicad Corporate Management

Laszlo Nagy — Mon, 30 Nov 2015 21:11:14 GMT

The generation change in leadership happened at Graphisoft a few years ago. The original executive team are now in their 60s. Only founder Gabor Bojar and one other person is in the Board of Directors (which is not the executive team).
The current executive team is mostly in their 40s. Yes, some of these people started working at GS 20 or so years ago but they became senior executives 4-5-6 or so years ago. So you think a person in their 40s is already pushing for retirement? And think they have lifetime rights to the company? Have you met or ever talked to any one of these people? I know almost all of them personally.

I would also be curious to hear about some facts that back your statement that market share is eroding for Graphisoft. Then I will tell you why I think it is not eroding. We will see. (What will happen in the future neither of us knows).

Autodesk is a huge firm. They are doing all kinds of stuff, including iOS-based apps like FormIt and browser-based CAD like Fusion 360. I see GRAPHISOFT as a firm very strongly focused on the architectural BIM space and trying to be the best in that space and not trying to be a jack-of-all-trades of a CAD company (my opinion).

I am sorry you have not found any of the advancement in the last 3 versions of ARCHICAD useful. I sure think Building Materials and Priority Based Connections, 3D Cutting Planes, the CineRender Engine, Revision Management, TABs, background processing, multiple Labels and the Dimensioning enhancements, just to list my favorites, were helpful additions in these versions.
Hopefully future versions of ARCHICAD will have enhancements useful to your practice as well.

Re: Archicad Corporate Management

archislave — Tue, 01 Dec 2015 01:28:52 GMT

Laszlo Thank you for your insight into the management. I was just stating my impression of the company based on the progress I see. I do think they need a lightweight iOS or web based app like FormIt but much better and capable of course. It could have the 3d modeling and presentation abilities with the architecture tools of archicad. Then for documentation and further development it could be pass on to archicad.

Wouldn't that be a nice revenue stream for Graphisoft since some people don't need full documentation. They could even play nice with exporting the model to Revit or other platforms for documentation. Consider how much preliminary design is done by architects and designers then it is handed off to cad pros to complete working drawings in Autocad or Revit.

The management is indeed still young and should be more aggressive in creating such a program. Do you work at Graphisoft or just hang out there often?

Re: Archicad Corporate Management

Laszlo Nagy — Tue, 01 Dec 2015 11:24:56 GMT

Yes, I work for Graphisoft as a freelancer. I go to their campus quite often (I live about 35 minutes walk from them - I usually walk across the Danube as it is a nice walk). Nowadays I go there a few times a month for meetings on current projects we are working on.

So if I understand right you would like to see an iOS application from GRAPHISOFT specifically for the preliminary/conceptual design phase of the building lifecycle. It is true that ARCHICAD does not have all the conceptual design tools it could have.
I think the best thing to do would be for you to make a wish out of this so we could see who else thinks this would be a good idea. (I will not vote on it because I am probably a bit biased at the moment )

However, just one thing I wish to mention: what I am gathering from following what is happening in the iOS space is that it is not particularly easy for developers to create successful and profitable products for mobile. Two main reasons are:
1. Most people using mobile apps except them to be totally free and very few of them are willing to pay any price to use them.
2. Apple does not allow trial versions for iOS apps. So people have to take a leap of faith by buying the app and just hope that it will be worth its price.

Please also consider that any effort put into creating a new iOS app will take development time and funds away from ARCHICAD.
So making these kinds of development decisions is never easy.

Re: Archicad Corporate Management

archislave — Tue, 01 Dec 2015 17:54:37 GMT

Ah! The Danube. I went to Budapest over ten years ago. I would love to go back! Beautiful City....

I see the issues with iOS as a concern. I think apple will need to start offering free trials or higher prices will be accepted as they try to grow iPad Pro. There is the route of offering basic functions in an app or using in app purchases to get more money from users. I think Adsk offers a cloud service and collaboration for many of it's apps.

If resources are that constrained then I would say not take resources away from Archicad. But, one has to ask why resources are that constrained and why there is no vision to create something new and put some money behind it. It could be lack of vision and being comfortable in holding your own and not declining too much in archicad sales.

I don't know the history of development of Archicad in the 1980's but imagine what vision it took to conceptualize such futuristic application. It would have been easy to make just another 2d cad program tailored a bit more to architecture than Autocad at the time. And to thing Hungary was under communist control at the time. Now you have all this freedom but are just bidding your time until some startup somewhere gets a new vision and creates something to eclipse the paradigm of 3d BIM in the vein of Archicad and Revit. These are established platforms with their similar metaphors slowly evolving over the past few decades.

It is similar to how we could not imagine a better computing experience than Mac or Windows (similar Archicad or Revit). The along comes iPhone and iPad and the resulting imitators in Android. So now we have two very useful approaches to our computing needs.

Currently Archicad is a heavy PC centric app which requires a huge outlay of expense of $5000 US dollars This increasingly looks ridiculous in the current approach of renting software on subscription. Adobe has made the flagship Photoshop and Lightroom a reasonable $10 a month. Autodesk also has gone all subscription and the bar to entry is much lower. I am done with paying big money to buy software. That is why I make use of my older Archicad. So this is how Graphisoft will slowly loose out even if there is no revolutionary new architectural software product.

Re: Archicad Corporate Management

archislave — Tue, 01 Dec 2015 18:02:18 GMT

To answer your question about the design software I would like to see: I see it as like the most popular sketchup but with architectural tools. Many projects are conceptualized in Sketchup but there is no intelligence in elements like wall or doors.

This product would not necessarily need to run on iOS. I just imagine a much more fun and modern user interface. One could look at Fusion 360, Formit or Sketchup as examples.

This product would export to Archicad or even Revit. Imagine if it was good enough then many firms would buy it as a front end to Revit. Later they could convert to Archicad. All the revenue you gain from this product could fund more development of Archicad.

It think you underestimate the strength of Revit in the US at least. Is is similar to how so many firm standardized on Autocad. All job opening now require Revit experience. So many architectural professions have not idea of Archicad. Getting Revit is like getting the internet and looking progressive. Then they struggle to make it work and wonder if they are really that much more efficient. Still they can't give it up.

Re: Archicad Corporate Management

Laszlo Nagy — Wed, 02 Dec 2015 22:59:36 GMT

archislave wrote:
If resources are that constrained then I would say not take resources away from Archicad. But, one has to ask why resources are that constrained and why there is no vision to create something new and put some money behind it. It could be lack of vision and being comfortable in holding your own and not declining too much in archicad sales.

Unfortunately I am not in the position to be able to know what would be a correct course: keeping with existing products or developing something new.

Currently Archicad is a heavy PC centric app which requires a huge outlay of expense of $5000 US dollars This increasingly looks ridiculous in the current approach of renting software on subscription. Adobe has made the flagship Photoshop and Lightroom a reasonable $10 a month. Autodesk also has gone all subscription and the bar to entry is much lower. I am done with paying big money to buy software. That is why I make use of my older Archicad. So this is how Graphisoft will slowly loose out even if there is no revolutionary new architectural software product.

So you are saying that you are willing to pay a lot more money on the long run with subscription? Just to give you some concrete data: A perpetual license of AutoCAD is USD 4195. An annual subscription is 40% or that (USD 1680). So you pay the price of a full new perpetual licence every 2.5 years. Also, if you stop paying you immediately lose the ability to start the application even if you just want to make some small change, you will have to buy at least a monthly subscription. Is this something that you would prefer to perpetual licence which you buy once and it will be yours forever, and it costs much less on the long run?

Re: Archicad Corporate Management

Laszlo Nagy — Wed, 02 Dec 2015 23:08:43 GMT

archislave wrote:
I think you underestimate the strength of Revit in the US at least. Is is similar to how so many firm standardized on Autocad. All job opening now require Revit experience. So many architectural professions have not idea of Archicad. Getting Revit is like getting the internet and looking progressive. Then they struggle to make it work and wonder if they are really that much more efficient. Still they can't give it up.

Yes, I am fully aware of Revit's dominance, especially in English-speaking countries. But that doesn't mean ARCHICAD's market is shrinking. From Nemetschek's financial reports one can see that the group is in a very healthy financial situation, growing nicely every year (even during the big recession of 2008-09), in part attributably to the growing business of ARCHICAD. This is a big market, there is room for many players.

Re: Graphisoft Corporate Management

archislave — Thu, 03 Dec 2015 20:01:53 GMT

The problem is you are using the purchase model as the basis. Why should anyone be expected to outlay such a large amount up front. Especially, given the fact that a yearly maintenance fee of $600 or so to remain current. It seems these prices are arbitrary and established for some reason decades ago. Had you ever thought that a lower monthly price would be a no brainer and more people would be willing to maintain a subscription.

The way it is now, many don't upgrade or some get pirated copies. I remember how we used to share older copies of Photoshop when the super high price as about $800. Then it was $250 every other year for the upgrade. Over two years you would spend Over $1000. On subscription it is $10 a month ($8 on amazon). Over two years you spend $240. You can look at their profit reports of how much more revenue they are taking in some more people are willing to pay than copy.

Autodesk is going all subscription and I hope they will bring down prices in a similar way. If you could initial purchase plus annual upgrade costs the subscription method is cheaper. Especially, as offices staff fluctuates with the economy. Yes maybe over ten years a purchase plus upgrades becomes cheaper than a subscription for 10 years. Then keep in mind how taxes work in the US. You can annualize your deductible offices expenses and not have to amortize or write down huge one time expenses over several years. This is the way it works and one big driver for subscriptions. Graphisoft ignores it a it's peril. I have never thought the US was their most important market and they will shrug their shoulders.

Re: Graphisoft Corporate Management

archislave — Thu, 03 Dec 2015 20:08:34 GMT

My other jab is that the current Graphisoft rest on the brave foundation laid by the previous forward thinking developer of Archicad. Even in the face of communism in Hungary this happened. Now there is no futuristic vision when things are so easy. It goes to show that some of the best inventions come out of hard times and adversity. They are so desperate to rise above and also used to risk.

It is too easy for the current executives to be happy with their pleasant lives. Nice houses, cars, clothes. Nice job to work in a nice city and pass the beautiful Danube everyday. Who would want to upset that. As long as the company is growing slightly and pay checks are coming in....

Meanwhile the sands are slowly eroding beneath their feet. The will be left standing on a pillar of sand due to their stubbornness.

Re: Graphisoft Corporate Management

Anonymous — Fri, 04 Dec 2015 12:41:00 GMT

I don't see the value to the client of the forced subscription model of Autodesk, in Australia it it currently $352/month for the Building design suite which contains s bunch of software I have no intention / desire to use (3ds Max, Navisworks, AutoCAD Architecture to name a few) but is used as 'added value' to increase the price of the suite. So after 2 years I have already more than paid for a perpetual license but will not be able to use the software or even open my files if I don't keep up the subscription.
The software companies are doing this to increase revenue and guarantee an income stream and dividends to the shareholders
Scott

Re: Graphisoft Corporate Management

Laszlo Nagy — Fri, 04 Dec 2015 20:54:40 GMT

archislave wrote:
My other jab is that the current Graphisoft rest on the brave foundation laid by the previous forward thinking developer of Archicad. Even in the face of communism in Hungary this happened. Now there is no futuristic vision when things are so easy. It goes to show that some of the best inventions come out of hard times and adversity. They are so desperate to rise above and also used to risk.

It is too easy for the current executives to be happy with their pleasant lives. Nice houses, cars, clothes. Nice job to work in a nice city and pass the beautiful Danube everyday. Who would want to upset that. As long as the company is growing slightly and pay checks are coming in....

Meanwhile the sands are slowly eroding beneath their feet. The will be left standing on a pillar of sand due to their stubbornness.

I just don't know where you get this idea from.

Scott, I am happy you chimed in with your opinion, it is better when two users clash their views, rather than a user and a moderator.

Re: Graphisoft Corporate Management

Ralph Wessel — Mon, 07 Dec 2015 11:56:33 GMT

archislave wrote:
My other jab is that the current Graphisoft rest on the brave foundation laid by the previous forward thinking developer of Archicad.

I'm not sure where you're getting this from either. When you think about any kind of technological advance, keep a few of things in mind:

1. Revolutionary breakthroughs are very rare. Apple seems to have pulled this off a few times, but it might never happen again for them either. Who knows - there isn't a technique for delivering revolutions. It's more likely to occur in relatively young markets. We were struggling with the notion of CAD when GS had a vision for BIM. There's still a lot of ground to break, but are there advancements on that scale to be made? Perhaps, but don't expect them as a matter of course.

2. ARCHICAD and all the technology it rests on (OS etc) has grown and matured. Like any growing thing, greater changes are simpler at early stages. Once complex systems have matured and solidified, the consequences of change are increasingly harder to integrate. Radical changes might cause far more harm than good.

3. GS didn't have an established customer base when ARCHICAD was started. That gives you a huge advantage if you want to start something radically different. Remember, GS has never forgotten its responsibilities to existing customers with every new development by ensuring our work can be safely and (relatively) easily moved from one version to another. This is a very significant design constraint – a wild leap forward that cuts off everything in the past is not a customer-friendly approach. Autodesk, by comparison, provided a terrible experience moving from AutoCAD to Revit and weak migration between Revit versions (e.g. no backward movement). Having fallen so far behind, it's probably the best they could do. Don't lose sight of the pains GS has taken to make your life simpler as changes are made.

If you knew the guys at GS personally, you wouldn't say things like this. They're a committed, incredibly smart and hardworking bunch of people.

Re: Graphisoft Corporate Management

Bricklyne Clarence — Mon, 07 Dec 2015 21:10:33 GMT

sboydturner wrote:
I don't see the value to the client of the forced subscription model of Autodesk, in Australia it it currently $352/month for the Building design suite which contains s bunch of software I have no intention / desire to use (3ds Max, Navisworks, AutoCAD Architecture to name a few) but is used as 'added value' to increase the price of the suite. So after 2 years I have already more than paid for a perpetual license but will not be able to use the software or even open my files if I don't keep up the subscription.
The software companies are doing this to increase revenue and guarantee an income stream and dividends to the shareholders
Scott

Can I just add my voice to a very firm and decisive NO to a subscription-only model.

As pointed out, the only reason Autodesk is doing this is to increase their revenue stream while locking in their customers to a market model that leaves them with no choice but to have to update and upgrade their subscription (and version number) every year, whether they want to or not, or risk not being able to work on their projects.

And all this while they lump on you "added value" extra software (more like shelfware), that you don't use and will never use.

You should hear firms that are locked into Autodesk's subscription model and how they complain about it.
And anyone who suggests this as a route for Graphisoft to take clearly hasn't worked for such a firm or under such a system.

It's a nightmare, that is all benefit to the Software developer, and almost no benefit to little benefit to the customer who ends up funding them for a lot of side-projects that never benefit them.
(ask Autodesk users how many of them are ever going to use Fusion 360 or Vasari, or any of these other side-projects that Autodesk is always seeming to start, and then abandoning shortly afterwards when they don't catch on. And yet they're all paying for it/them)

Re: Graphisoft Corporate Management

Eduardo Rolon — Mon, 07 Dec 2015 22:34:27 GMT

Bricklyne wrote:
sboydturner wrote:
I don't see the value to the client of the forced subscription model of Autodesk, in Australia it it currently $352/month for the Building design suite which contains s bunch of software I have no intention / desire to use (3ds Max, Navisworks, AutoCAD Architecture to name a few) but is used as 'added value' to increase the price of the suite. So after 2 years I have already more than paid for a perpetual license but will not be able to use the software or even open my files if I don't keep up the subscription.
The software companies are doing this to increase revenue and guarantee an income stream and dividends to the shareholders
Scott
Can I just add my voice to a very firm and decisive NO to a subscription-only model.

As pointed out, the only reason Autodesk is doing this is to increase their revenue stream while locking in their customers to a market model that leaves them with no choice but to have to update and upgrade their subscription (and version number) every year, whether they want to or not, or risk not being able to work on their projects.

And all this while they lump on you "added value" extra software (more like shelfware), that you don't use and will never use.

You should hear firms that are locked into Autodesk's subscription model and how they complain about it.
And anyone who suggests this as a route for Graphisoft to take clearly hasn't worked for such a firm or under such a system.

It's a nightmare, that is all benefit to the Software developer, and almost no benefit to little benefit to the customer who ends up funding them for a lot of side-projects that never benefit them.
(ask Autodesk users how many of them are ever going to use Fusion 360 or Vasari, or any of these other side-projects that Autodesk is always seeming to start, and then abandoning shortly afterwards when they don't catch on. And yet they're all paying for it/them)

Re: Graphisoft Corporate Management

archislave — Fri, 11 Dec 2015 17:04:54 GMT

Autodesk is certainly not the model to follow. I am holding up Adobe as an example of fair and even advantageous subscription value. I would also say that Microsoft Office 365 personal is a good value compared to buying Office. It is up to the seller to offer good value. Not gouge customers. I never understood why most architectural software costs over $5000 anyway. People have just accepted this with no question as to why or how this figure was arrived at for 20 years.

Re: Graphisoft Corporate Management

Eduardo Rolon — Fri, 11 Dec 2015 17:10:19 GMT

I include adobe in this. My Adobe software cost went from $100 anually to $360 for software that I don't use to produce construction documents.

Re: Graphisoft Corporate Management

archislave — Fri, 11 Dec 2015 18:11:26 GMT

You can stop your subscription at any time. I pay $10 a month for Photoshop and Lightroom. What other software would you need from Adobe to practice architecture?