topic Re: BIM? WHY? in Modeling

BIM? WHY?

Anonymous — Fri, 07 Jul 2006 19:25:59 GMT

We all know by now that BIM is the next evolution of the AEC industry. However, what I am unsure of it what began the revolution? For me I went through Architecture school doing 3D modeling as a standard practice. It just makes sense to me to take that model and use it for everything that it is worth. What I can not figure out is why we see resistance from architects of today? Now, I am not talking about the senior architects, they actually seem quite receptive to the notion. I am talking about the 30 something guys, the guys who were on the other side of the coin not to long ago with the CADD revolution. Today, I here things like, “BIM won’t last, it is just a fad and the industry will go back to the way it was.” Sound familiar to anyone? I wasn’t around when computer drafting began, but I’m sure that the same things were said then. My question to the group, why?

Re: BIM? WHY?

Dwight — Fri, 07 Jul 2006 20:18:39 GMT

Nobody enjoys change when they don't personally profit.

When 3D modeling came along, all the drafters saw their easy lives get difficult. More learning. Less "Work."
When BIM arrived, all of a sudden,, there was more work. Now eveybody is a quantity surveyor. Yay. Drawings had to mean something.
The real benefit of all of this BIM stuff is that it eliminates the b u l l s h i t in a drawing set. Our colleague Mitch has pioneered a service where his model detects the collision of structure and services in a project. Imagine even NEEDING that service in a competently designed structure! Huy yuy yuy! Good thing it is called the BIM and not the Building Utility Model.

You see my avatar? That's a Tai Chi move for the new milennium called "Archiect Explains the Concept." I was imitating my old boss, Mr. Vague Direction. He wasn't a BIM type of guy.

Re: BIM? WHY?

Anonymous — Sat, 08 Jul 2006 20:09:28 GMT

I believe that people are afraid of what they don't know/understand. This new concept of putting in all of the building data while constructing is new to many and therefore, scary.

I can understand cost issues when it comes to switching to BIM software, but for those that say 'its a fad' are just fooling themselves to the real truth: They are afraid of the work it will require to learn the new stuff.

I am just finishing 90 days of 'learning' the listing features of ArchiCAD, finishing up a template, and being able to pull pertinent data for estimating purposes. It has been a challenge to not only learn additional software portions of ArchiCAD, but also convert the current drafter/designers into drawing with certain standards that provide all of this great data. I can attest that learning BIM software is a challenge, but a valuable (and I believe an essential) one none-the-less. BIM is where the industry will go/be so all the better to learn it now rather than later.

Re: BIM? WHY?

Anonymous — Sun, 09 Jul 2006 13:56:24 GMT

I have seen the most resistance over the years coming from experienced AutoCAD drafters. It takes a lot of work to become good at working in AutoCAD and they are understandably reluctant to toss all that and start over.

Part of the trouble is that an AutoCAD background not only doesn't help someone to grasp ArchiCAD, it typically impedes the process.

The other problem is that the whole way of working changes. There is no guarantee that a good drafter is going to make an equally good building modeler.

Re: BIM? WHY?

Ernest Atanasiu — Sat, 02 Sep 2006 14:21:51 GMT

Who will benefit from the BIM situation?
The architect? then BIM should move towards the 'soul of a building', not the details (yeah, yeah, the details are everything), meaning you should put the accent on the building itself and not the components. relations within components are more important than the components. defining those relations might put BIM in its desired place.
The drafter? in this case BIM is very good, since you can do more in less time, don't have to check 200 drawings to see one mistake.
The others involved in the process? engineers, clients, maybe? in my case engineers got stuck on autocad plans long time ago. BIM means nothing to them. and clients want to see only the vray version, if possible. and also the specs and scheduling, cost estimations, before you will even draw the first guideline of the model.

Re: BIM? WHY?

Dwight — Sat, 02 Sep 2006 14:55:20 GMT

Perhaps your practice is all storage sheds or boxes, but as soon as you go beyond where you can hold the whole project in your head, everybody benefits from BIM:

BIM allows architects to think in three dimensions and helps those (most of them) who can't.

BIM makes better details.

BIM identifies assembly problems before the steel is cut. Steel errors not so bad, but wood errors catastrophe because you can't weld on extra.

BIM cuts the c r a p - no more "kiting" a sketch in the hope that the lads on site will figure it out. Saw that a lot while installing my last art project in a new building. Heard lot of cursing from glaziers re: "colorful euphemism architects!"

BIM creates information, something drawings cannot do.

BIM makes better buildings in less time, but is not necessarily less work.

BTW: Uisa: Time for you to get modern engineers. Maybe not so important for electrical but even HVAC is all 3D now.

Re: BIM? WHY?

Ernest Atanasiu — Sun, 03 Sep 2006 16:41:56 GMT

You're right, it's time to change something. I'm thinking I should start by changing the country I'm living in. Fogging communists, they screwed up this one.
Anyone hiring in the EU? I like Spain and Portugal a lot. Maybe a seashore town?

Re: BIM? WHY?

Richard Morrison — Sun, 03 Sep 2006 18:24:15 GMT

PivoArch wrote:
Now, I am not talking about the senior architects, they actually seem quite receptive to the notion. I am talking about the 30 something guys, the guys who were on the other side of the coin not to long ago with the CADD revolution. Today, I here things like, “BIM won’t last, it is just a fad and the industry will go back to the way it was.” Sound familiar to anyone? I wasn’t around when computer drafting began, but I’m sure that the same things were said then. My question to the group, why?

Actually, I WAS there when computer drafting began, but I don't think it was ever perceived as a "fad"; rather the inevitable that was resisted by some for as long as they could. In fact, I know some that are still resisting it, and draft everything by hand (after they finish shoeing their horses).

My guess is that the senior guys who successfully made it to the other side from manual to CAD drafting simply are already comfortable with significant paradigm shifts, and don't see it as threatening. Maybe even a good thing. (I can remember the shift from slide rules to battery-powered calculators in architecture school. Now that was GREAT! I doubt most of the young whippersnappers now have ever SEEN a slide rule.) Then there was a shift to "pin bar" overlay drafting. Woohoo!

Younger folk maybe have only known shifts like from AutoCAD R14 to 2004. Not a lot to prepare them for entirely different ways of thinking about production.

Re: BIM? WHY?

Anonymous — Tue, 05 Sep 2006 13:29:48 GMT

PivoArch wrote:
...why we see resistance from architects of today?

I stumbled recently on THE ANSWER. http://www.cafepress.com/tennesseetees/774984

Can't imagine any architect wanting to 'do it' with virtual models, much less building information models.

Re: BIM? WHY?

Anonymous — Tue, 05 Sep 2006 13:57:34 GMT

>Today, I here things like, “BIM won’t last, it is just a fad and the industry will go back to the way it was.”

That's why Autodesk acquired Revit, which is the attempt to copy ArchiCAD. Autocad Architectural Desktop is beaten red and raw by Revit. So they say... 😉

Bob

Re: BIM? WHY?

Scott Davis — Tue, 05 Sep 2006 17:15:32 GMT

jdk wrote:
That's why Autodesk acquired Revit, which is the attempt to copy ArchiCAD.

I wouldn't come close to calling it a "copy".

Re: BIM? WHY?

Anonymous — Wed, 06 Sep 2006 09:12:53 GMT

>>That's why Autodesk acquired Revit, which is the attempt to copy ArchiCAD.

>I wouldn't come close to calling it a "copy".

Indeed, I said "attempt to", with respect to BIM too.

Bob

Re: BIM? WHY?

Anonymous — Thu, 07 Sep 2006 12:00:45 GMT

Ok, so paradihm shift and all, I know some of you guys are making the transition just as easily as us "young wipper-snappers", there must have been a reason you believed in it or even just trying it out. In trying out BIM there was probably a point where you found something extremely useful and it clicked that this was the right way to go about doing something. What was that point? Or, did we all just start believing without testing, cause lets face it the dollar signs are still a factor. There is art in architecture I know but everyone who owns a firm is out to make money, right? No one got into this business to lose it (although that is pretty easy to do). There are obvious time saving and cost benifits to using a BIM process, we all know what they are. But what made you guys decide to give it a shot? Why not stick with CAD and what was working? I ask this because I have some guys now who have a bad taste in their mouths because their first BIM project went south. Now, this had nothing to do with ArchiCAD, it was late design changes and a lack of decisions and time spent by the PA and team. The learning curve hurt a bit sure but the failure of the project was not BIM's fault. They would say otherwise. What would you suggest I work with the guys on or tell them to help sway them back?

Re: BIM? WHY?

Anonymous — Thu, 07 Sep 2006 13:53:57 GMT

I can only talk of personal experience, but I have seen this happen often enough:

It reminds me of that drawing, where the homo sapiens evolve from a walking tree dweller, left to right.
You see 5 or 6 stages of development, ever more vertical and hairless.

First thing that drew me to VB (I still like Virtual Building more than BIM) was automatic drawings. You just build the stuff and the drawing are all there (we wish...).
Lately we have seen some trends in software development (latest version of Revit, where they make a big brouhaha on integrating 500+ 2d details) that seem to point BIM away from automatic drawing. That is not to say they don't do it any more, but the emphasis is on database, interoperathionality (argh, can´t even spell it), IFC, whatever.
Looks like they are scared of this subject, the promise they made 23 years ago: Completely automatic drawings.

Next comes visualization. After you get pretty good with you model, you start producing very nice renderings with almost no extra effort.

Next comes design decisions. As you get better, you start leaving the pencil and paper even in early stages, and experiment directly on your computer.

Only then are you ready for the true BIM (whatever that is), taking all that data out of the model.

So, in order of importance and on a personal time scale:
2 years - automatic drawings
0.5 year - renderings
2 to 4 years - design decisions directly with VB
After those initial 6 years - true BIM (or as near as you can get).

For all those flatcadders that need rescuing from the 2d world, I always focus on stage one (get out of the trees!) on automatic drawings and automatic update.
Nobody likes to do the mule work, so if you focus on automation, ppl usually brighten up.
Automatic drawings is maybe a small percentage of BIM, but it sure is the most important one for designers.

Re: BIM? WHY?

Stephen Dolbee — Thu, 07 Sep 2006 16:49:15 GMT

I first started CADD in the mid 80's. It was strictly 2d, of course. CADD gave a "cleaner" drawing (although some missed the hand-drawn look). The other benefit-changes were easier. No more erasing and redrawing and no more sepias. I could always draw faster by hand, though. However, when the whole modeling concept was introduced I loved the idea. I first saw Archicad at an AIA convention in Atlanta-early 90's. It was incredible! I got a demo copy and began playing with it and couldn't stop. To be able to visualize the building as it is being drawn-what an idea! I even drew a small house with the demo and took polaroid pictures of the monitor to show the client different 3d views (praying that the power didn't go out). I finally convinced the boss that this was the program we needed. We have been using it ever since. I believe BIM is here to stay.