topic Re: What is going on with Tech Support these days? in Modeling

What is going on with Tech Support these days?

Richard Morrison — Sat, 09 May 2020 04:29:08 GMT

This is a rant. I called tech support today with a very specific issue I was having. The rigid insulation was not being cut by the higher priority concrete footing as I expected it to. I was routed to a tech support person (I guess they are being called BIM Advisors now), who said that in the five years he's been doing this, he's never had an issue with building materials acting incorrectly and that it was likely lack of user knowledge. It was probably going to require training that I was going to have to pay for. (WTF???) He suggested that there could be several possible causes. I said, okay, why don't you just tell me what they are. He bristled and said, "Well, then I'd have given you 20 minutes of free training." After assuring him that I had over twenty years of using ArchiCAD and it wasn't likely a lack of training, I agreed to send him the file. He got back to me by e-mail a few hours later with the response that ArchiCAD was working exactly as expected, and suggested a solution that was going to require other workarounds.

After tinkering with this on my own a bit more, I discovered that the complex profile didn't clean up properly as a wall, but DID as a beam.

I am left with a complete lack of understanding of what merits the "priority" technical support that I am supposed to receive as an ArchiPlus subscriber vs. training, which I understand is beyond technical support's purview. This whole experience does not reflect well on Graphisoft. (I really miss Nick Cornia )

Re: What is going on with Tech Support these days?

DGSketcher — Sat, 09 May 2020 08:44:46 GMT

Sounds like he could be ex-Autodesk and needs some customer service training.

I would escalate the way you were treated to his manager, as you say paying the annual support fee should provide a decent level of service, particularly if you are also more likely reporting a bug rather than correcting a lack of knowledge.

Re: What is going on with Tech Support these days?

Karl Ottenstein — Sat, 09 May 2020 16:57:42 GMT

No excuse for how that was handled, Richard...

But, to me, this isn't even a building material / intersection priority issue but a modeling one. Why would the complex slab be extended beyond the inside edge of the stem wall in any case? It would never be built that way. The issue in your screenshot doesn't seem to be that the insulation and flooring isn't being cut... the entire slab should be cut by the stem wall portion of your profiled footing/stem wall... and the green highlight shows that not even the concrete is cut.

Re: What is going on with Tech Support these days?

Richard Morrison — Sat, 09 May 2020 18:18:19 GMT

Karl,
You are correct regarding how this would be built in reality, however, I wanted the slab at the outside edge of the building for modeling/2D reasons, including early dimensioning and "magic wanding" purposes. I figured the building material cleanup in section would take care of any shortcuts regarding the slab. The top and bottom layers of the slab were concrete sandwiching the rigid insulation. As it turned out, the complex profile as a wall didn't cut the insulation at all, even though it was set as a lower priority material. Interestingly, when I used the same profile as a BEAM, everything was cut properly. (Also, the beam had the nice feature of providing a hidden line for the footing below. I probably should have used that in the first place. Walls don't create the automatic hidden lines under slabs that beams do.)

The only reason my brain went first to the complex wall rather than the complex beam was the ability to easily magic wand the footing around the slab accurately, since beams use their axis which required more adjustment. Going then to section, I was perplexed that it wasn't cleaning up the way I expected, and called tech support to figure out why.

I think what bothers me most about this experience is the apparent automatic assumption that users probably just don't know how to use the program correctly, and now need to pay extra to get the inside secret that the user inadvertently overlooked. Given how complex GS has now made this program (e.g the stair/railing tool), it feels like GS is now trying to profit from the complexity that they created themselves.

Re: What is going on with Tech Support these days?

Karl Ottenstein — Sun, 10 May 2020 21:25:31 GMT

Totally agree with your feelings about the situation, Richard. And now see your desire to use the slab as a preliminary design and then refine it with automatic cutting. Check.

The beam behavior totally makes sense given that beams have always - even a dozen versions ago - cut in ways that other things did not...

But, I'm still intrigued by the wall profile problem.... If the concrete in the stem wall correctly used a different building material with a stronger priority than the concrete in the slab (basically, duplicated structural concrete and a higher priority)... it should have cut? It would have to not be the same BM as the slab concrete as otherwise it won't cut through the slab, much less reach the insulation to cut it. I think...? Also, with a separate BM, you would then see proper pour lines in section as well, as the two concretes would not merge?

(I hope someone from support management reaches out and comments on your experience.)

Re: What is going on with Tech Support these days?

DGSketcher — Sun, 10 May 2020 22:24:00 GMT

A further observation... if the stem WALL extends by any amount higher than the top surface of the slab then the PBC's correctly form at the junction. I think this is a modelling inconsistency and Richard was right to take it up as an issue/bug with support.

Re: What is going on with Tech Support these days?

Anonymous — Mon, 11 May 2020 09:07:41 GMT

I thing it's a bug. Wall's and Slab connexion works differently than others due to the fact that Walls may have Doors and Windows.
There is a rule that prevent Finishes layers of composite Slab to be cut by Walls where Doors or Windows lies with a bottom level align with the top face of the slab ignoring material priority number.
What you describe sounds to me like a bug in the way this rule is programmed.
In the Slab composite is your insulation define as finish ?

Re: What is going on with Tech Support these days?

James B — Mon, 11 May 2020 10:17:37 GMT

The Wall and Slab are forming an L junction, similar if these were 2 Walls on Floor Plan. When 2 Building Materials of high strength meet, then it won't continue in an L type junction. If this was a T type, then it would continue, similar to how 2 Walls would meet.

Slab and Beams don't have this L vs T type logic. They only intersect.

The pages on the Help Center have been updated a bit lately, but I see this type of explanation and clarification is missing.

Re: What is going on with Tech Support these days?

runxel — Mon, 11 May 2020 14:14:51 GMT

Hey James! Thanks for chiming in and thanks for the clarification.
I just fail to see... why this "logic" is there in the first place? Like, where do you need this behavior?
Maybe I'm missing an obvious thing here, but it clearly looks as if most people are confused by that.

Re: What is going on with Tech Support these days?

Erwin Edel — Mon, 11 May 2020 14:26:53 GMT

Luckily in about 15 years we've never been treated like this by support from our local reseller, so not all of them are bad!

There is always the option of telling someone they need basic training, but certainly not in this case.

For the problem at hand: often core/other/finish settings also yield different results.

The tricky part with composite slabs is ussually insulation and finish layers that extend beyond the core, requiring you to draw them larger/bigger than they should be or to give up and work with several slabs.

Re: What is going on with Tech Support these days?

Richard Morrison — Mon, 11 May 2020 15:50:41 GMT

Erwin wrote:
Luckily in about 15 years we've never been treated like this by support from our local reseller, so not all of them are bad!

Erwin, I have a very good local reseller, who is quite knowledgeable with general issues, but he isn't really working with AC on a daily basis, so he often doesn't know about more subtle issues. I usually give him a try first, but know that ultimately I'm going to be calling tech support, which is GS North America -- providing tech support for the entire U.S.

Re: What is going on with Tech Support these days?

Richard Morrison — Mon, 11 May 2020 21:57:45 GMT

I have to give credit where it's due. I got a call today from Nick Cornia, who turns out to have been promoted to Technical Support Manager. We had a frank discussion where he mostly just listened to my concerns, and responded completely non-defensively and openly. I can only applaud GS for recognizing his customer service talents which were on full display during this call. Good job, GS! (And Nick, too.)

Re: What is going on with Tech Support these days?

NCornia — Mon, 11 May 2020 23:50:14 GMT

Hi Richard,

Our team is sorry for the frustation you encountered. It was pleasure speaking with you and wish to thank you for your valuable feedback to improve our process in the future. And thank you for the compliment.

For the benefit of all who read this post, our goal at Technical Support in North America is to provide all clients with an excellent service experience and to assist in helping everyone find resolution to issues in a timely manner. It is true for questions regarding training, where a client wishes to have someone walk through a particular set of steps one on one, we in North America, offer a paid on-demand bespoke service.

Providing this option allows clients who need help with software processes to be connected with specialists who have expertise in these areas. This also allows our technical support team to prioritize clients who are experiencing connectivity and software failures. We provide these options to expedite your resolution and provide a smooth process and connect you with the correct team. The paid service our North American BIM advisor team is also provided complimentary if the issue is deemed a bug or shortcoming on the part of GRAPHISOFT.

In this case, the interaction of building materials under a particular set of circumstances was not obvious. It might be deduced after some testing, but as James pointed out, a clarification on our Help Center for this particular type of condition is in order and we will let our documentation team know.

If you do have an experience which does not meet your expectations, we want to understand why and hear what your expectations are so that we can correct where necessary. We want to work with our clients and continue to build partnerships with you as you build your business.

Thank you for being a part of the GRAPHISOFT community and we really appreciate you posting about your experience here.

Best regards,

Re: What is going on with Tech Support these days?

Richard Morrison — Tue, 12 May 2020 17:21:33 GMT

NCornia wrote:
The paid service our North American BIM advisor team is also provided complimentary if the issue is deemed a bug or shortcoming on the part of GRAPHISOFT.

This is the part that makes me quite uncomfortable. Who is deciding whether this is a shortcoming or not? We call in with an issue like, "Why isn't this one interior elevation showing the heavy wall outline like all of the others?" If we are met with a response like, "The wall profile behaviors are clearly shown in the (3,744 page) Reference Guide. We will be happy to TRAIN you to get the results you want, though, for a price" personally, I would be more than a little upset. If I want to get training in how to generically draw interior elevations, that's one thing. If I have to pay more money because GS has made the program so complicated that a reasonably smart guy can't figure it out after using the program for decades, that's another.

Perhaps it would be helpful for others to opine. I just don't think this path is helpful to the GS user experience.

Re: What is going on with Tech Support these days?

DGSketcher — Tue, 12 May 2020 19:33:24 GMT

Richard wrote:
If I have to pay more money because GS has made the program so complicated that a reasonably smart guy can't figure it out after using the program for decades, that's another.

Well 25 years with AC and guess how I spent most of my day... trying to work out why beams were showing in some views & not others. Eventually tracked down to the Renovation filter and similar named settings applied to some beams. Most of the time I assumed it was a new case of buggy beam display settings after the latest update.

I also pay GSUK a substantial chunk of money each year. Based on their supporting documentation, part of this covers the provision of "timely solutions, fixes and workarounds to customer problems and queries, all without quotas". I appreciate it's probably a difficult thing for support to say but there will be occasions when clearly a customer really does need training, however, this should be an offer explained to the customer after providing a solution to the initial problem, not a judgmental assumption of skill or an immediate financial confrontation.

Re: What is going on with Tech Support these days?

NCornia — Tue, 12 May 2020 23:21:13 GMT

Thank you for the additional feedback. We do our utmost to provide fair and reliable service to all of our clients. Most cases follow a just path to resolution and if a situation arises where there is some disagreement, we are open to feedback. Although we try our best, if there are unexpected bumps in the road and we are flexible and willing to course correct where needed. We hope your future interactions with us meet this expectation. If you have any follow up questions or concerns please feel free to reach out to me directly.

Best regards,

Re: What is going on with Tech Support these days?

Richard Morrison — Tue, 12 May 2020 23:37:48 GMT

So, after looking into this some more, it appears that this is how the new tech support scheme works, at least in the U.S.:

1) Crashes or error messages. No problem, you can still call tech support no charge.
2) If you can't find the solution to your issue on this forum, Googling, the online reference guide, or Youtube videos, you have to book a 20 minute session with a BIM Advisor for $50. (You do get a slight discount for ArchiPlus membership.) No mention of what happens if you can't get it resolved within the 20 minutes allotted.

This new approach to the "premium technical support" that GS is still advertising as part of the ArchiPlus subscription benefits has been pretty much just slipped into existence by stealth. Yeah, it's now on the ArchiPlus website, but certainly I never saw any notifications to subscribers to indicate that the policy had changed. This new policy explains why there was a difference in expectations when I called originally, and so much friction. That the change was never explicitly mentioned probably indicates that GS realized at some level that the customer experience was not going to be enhanced by this support structure and are trying to keep it as low profile as possible. Personally, I think it stinks.

Re: What is going on with Tech Support these days?

NCornia — Wed, 13 May 2020 00:21:24 GMT

Hi Richard,

In discussing this matter with you I understand now, what is desired is a clearer written statement of our services clearly outlining the extents of support and protocols. We reviewed some of the existing online materials surrounding the roles of Technical Support and our BIM Advisor department and the language on the page requires adjustments for clarity. I will work to get this information updated and made clearer.

Best regards,

Re: What is going on with Tech Support these days?

Gerald Hoffman — Tue, 19 May 2020 01:43:25 GMT

Hi Nick,
I thought I would chime in with my 2 cents worth on this issue. I have been a user since V4.55 so about 25+ years now. With the yearly version release and having taken part in several Beta testings I know that there are usually quite a few "issues" with the program on release date. It is just too quick of a schedule if there is a new tool being added, IMHO.

Perhaps a compromise might be that any support issues relating to new features after the release are just assumed to be growing pains and that support would generally be offered free with few questions asked for at least 4-6 months after the release date. As we know the new tools do not always behave the way they are advertised initially. It is also true that new bugs seem to get into existing tools that were working fine before the new release. Therefore after a new release the initial period often becomes an extending Beta testing period for GS and could be considered a free service from users.

Cheers,