topic Re: Creating walls with varying heights in Modeling

Creating walls with varying heights

Anonymous — Wed, 24 May 2023 06:25:45 GMT

I am currently designing a new building and in certain areas I need to create a wall such that the height at the beginning is floor level and rises at some angle (not known yet) until it reaches the next floor up. Are there any methods inwhich to create a wall like this or do I have to create a profile? It would be so easy if it was possible to put a wall in place and then while in 3D just grab the upper corner and drag it to the appropriate location like most 3D MCAD programs do. Thanks in advance.

Re: Creating walls with varying heights

Anonymous — Mon, 08 Jan 2018 00:43:45 GMT

SEO the wall to the floor/roof, or create an SEO using a roof plane set on a layer to be switched off.

Re: Creating walls with varying heights

Anonymous — Mon, 08 Jan 2018 20:41:43 GMT

Thanks for the help Rogerdodge. I made followed your idea of using a roof for "clipping" the unwanted part of the walls but I found out that the method is not perfect. In my case the portion of the wall to be trimmed was less than the total length of the wall. When I created the roof for trimming I only made if for the area to be trimmed. The result was that not only was my wall trimmed along the bottom of the roof the portion of the wall that went beyond the top of the roof was also trimmed away. After fiddling for a while I decided to just extend the highest point of the roof until it was beyond the end of the wall being trimmed. That allowed the whole wall to show with only the unwanted part being removed. Personally I think the requirement to over extend the roof so that it only trims the area necessary and not any of the wall that is beyond the end of the roof is a flaw in the software (not a bug). It is also burdensome to have to create fake features to allow components to be created or modified and it would better if Archicad programmers could make component modifications easier by just altering the locations of the component handles/hotspots/etc.

Re: Creating walls with varying heights

Barry Kelly — Tue, 09 Jan 2018 01:00:02 GMT

As Rogerdodge said use SEO (Solid Element Operation) to trim your wall.
This will only trim the portion directly above/below the roof.

If you use the connect > trim to roof command it will use the roof trimming body to control the cut and anything inside/outside the trimming body will be removed.

Barry.

Re: Creating walls with varying heights

Anonymous — Tue, 09 Jan 2018 15:37:02 GMT

Something else that could help, is to use a shell instead of wall, and define contour. It will depend on others factor around the project but this could work.

If you are going to add windows check one of the tips I have in video.

Re: Creating walls with varying heights

Anonymous — Tue, 09 Jan 2018 21:39:08 GMT

Thanks for the assistance Barry in understanding how trimming with an SEO is different than with a roof. I actually tried to do that but got frustrated as the SEO tool allowed me to pick the wall to be trimmed it never gave me a chance to create the cutting shape. It only seemed to want me to provide the cutting shape based on the shape of another object which I would have had to create. I tried to find a step by step tutorial (written or video) to allow me to understand the SEO tool better but I couldn't seem to find anything using the search box on the website. Do you know of any links?

Re: Creating walls with varying heights

Anonymous — Tue, 09 Jan 2018 23:55:07 GMT

There are a few videos on Youtube, did you try those?

Re: Creating walls with varying heights

Barry Kelly — Wed, 10 Jan 2018 01:19:21 GMT

DrWho wrote:
Thanks for the assistance Barry in understanding how trimming with an SEO is different than with a roof. I actually tried to do that but got frustrated as the SEO tool allowed me to pick the wall to be trimmed it never gave me a chance to create the cutting shape. It only seemed to want me to provide the cutting shape based on the shape of another object which I would have had to create. I tried to find a step by step tutorial (written or video) to allow me to understand the SEO tool better but I couldn't seem to find anything using the search box on the website. Do you know of any links?

It is pretty simple.
Model everything first (i.e. walls and whatever you want to use to trim them with).
Open the SEO tool.
Select the wall and press the "Get Target Elements" button.
Select the roof (or what you want to do the cutting) and press the "Get Operator Elements" button.
Now choose how you want the cut to happen - subtract or subtract with upwards (or downwards) extrusion and then press the "Execute" button.

You can select more than one target or operator at the same time so you can trim a hole bunch of walls with as many roofs (or other elements) as you want.

It is a 'live' connection so as you adjust the target or operator elements, the resulting SEO will adjust automatically as well.
Hide the operator in a hidden layer if you don't want to see it - you can't delete it because there will be nothing doing the cutting any more.

Barry.

Re: Creating walls with varying heights

Anonymous — Wed, 10 Jan 2018 21:35:41 GMT

Thank you Barry:
Base on the directions you supplied I was able to trim the walls without the roof but even then it was not perfect. In my case I have a section of seating and it takes a couple of stairs to go from one level to the next. I used the stair tool create those steps which means there is a space between the bottom of the steps and the seating walls and floors. If I use the seating structure to trim the wall the result does not fill in under the steps. Worked but not as well as I would have liked. It would be better if the user could modify the operator elements (that is change the shape) as that would make sure the trim is exactly what the user wants. I did notice what I think is a drawback to the SEO tool. I noticed that the "execute" function only works when the operator actually crosses into the item to be trimmed. If the operator abuts or does not intersect the target the operation will fail. Obviously the tool does not "Project" the features/shape of the operator onto the target but if it did then it would make some of the work go quicker and easier. Maybe one of the GS programmers could look at adding these capabilities.

Re: Creating walls with varying heights

Barry Kelly — Thu, 11 Jan 2018 00:43:50 GMT

DrWho wrote:
In my case I have a section of seating and it takes a couple of stairs to go from one level to the next. I used the stair tool create those steps which means there is a space between the bottom of the steps and the seating walls and floors. If I use the seating structure to trim the wall the result does not fill in under the steps. Worked but not as well as I would have liked. It would be better if the user could modify the operator elements (that is change the shape) as that would make sure the trim is exactly what the user wants.

If existing elements are not suitable for the operation then feel free to add other elements that can be placed in a hidden layer that can be the exact shape for what you want to trim to.
Usually the existing elements are fine.
Maybe a picture of what you are trying to do will help explain?

DrWho wrote:
I did notice what I think is a drawback to the SEO tool. I noticed that the "execute" function only works when the operator actually crosses into the item to be trimmed. If the operator abuts or does not intersect the target the operation will fail. Obviously the tool does not "Project" the features/shape of the operator onto the target but if it did then it would make some of the work go quicker and easier. Maybe one of the GS programmers could look at adding these capabilities.

Yes SEO only happens when the elements intersect.
If they don't intersect they will not be extended - but the SEO is actually still in effect - you just won't see anything.
For example if the wall is below the roof the SEO will have no effect.
But adjust the wall height and you will now see the SEO.
So you have to manually extend the elements yourself.

You can tell if an element is part of an SEO when you select it.
You will see a small square icon that you can click on to see a list of trims.
They can be cancelled by clicking the cross at the end of the name.

Also the effect of an SEO will not be seen in the plan view.
i.e. the wall may trim in 3D but will not show that trim in plan.

Barry.

Re: Creating walls with varying heights

Lingwisyer — Thu, 11 Jan 2018 03:19:27 GMT

I did notice what I think is a drawback to the SEO tool. I noticed that the "execute" function only works when the operator actually crosses into the item to be trimmed. If the operator abuts or does not intersect the target the operation will fail.

The operator itself doesn't need to intersect, just the zone of the operation type selected given the extruded up/down options. If neither the zone nor the operator itself intersect, you just won't see the effect of the operation, but it's still there.

Obviously the tool does not "Project" the features/shape of the operator onto the target but if it did then it would make some of the work go quicker and easier. Maybe one of the GS programmers could look at adding these capabilities.

What do you mean by this? Using the subtraction with upward/downward extrusion, you'll get a vertical hole that follows the cross section of your operator. If you're wanting the entire shape (solid) of your operator intersecting it's relevant parts is the only way.

If you're looking for the subtraction of a horizontal cross section as an operation you can always model it vertically then convert it to a morph and rotate it to the required orientation.

Ling.

Re: Creating walls with varying heights

Barry Kelly — Thu, 11 Jan 2018 03:54:45 GMT

Lingwisyer wrote:

The operator itself doesn't need to intersect, just the zone of the operation type selected given the extruded up/down options. If neither the zone nor the operator itself intersect, you just won't see the effect of the operation, but it's still there.

Yes sorry I wasn't 100% clear.
The elements do not need to physically intersect for the upwards or downwards extrusion to work.
So long as the projection of the operator (i.e. the 'zone') intersects with the target then the SEO will still happen - even if they are separated.

Only the standard 'subtraction' or 'intersection' requires the target and operator to physically intersect.

Just to complicate things a little bit you have to be careful of the Building Material strengths for elements that automatically connect.
i.e. if you are trying to SEO a strong wall to a weak slab it won't work if the wall is the target and the slab is the operator.
The weak slab will automatically be connected to the slab creating a hole in the slab.
Because of this hole there is no slab to create the SEO with the wall as there is no intersection (or projection).
The SEO will be active but nothing will happen.
Make the slab stronger than the wall and it will now SEO properly.
(see attached image).

Barry.

Re: Creating walls with varying heights

Anonymous — Thu, 11 Jan 2018 21:39:50 GMT

Hello Barry:
To give you a better idea of what I want to do I have attached 2 pictures.

This first one is an example both inside curve and outside curved stairs. Please note that I created them with my MCAD software and it was easy using the sweep tool. First create the sweep path and then the profile and click sweep and voila. In the second picture
it shows the corner of a hockey rink. On the right side of the picture you will see the side stands (pay not attention to the seats as they are only there to take up space for locations) which were created using the "stair" tool as that is much faster than having to insert a slab and then a wall and then a slab and a wall to create them. It would be much easier to use the stair tool in the corners as well except that there isn't any sweep function for stairs. If it were possible the stairs could be used to terminate wall that are under the seating area. I can quickly create the seating section with my MCAD software and then import it into Archicad but I don't know of this new GDL object can be used for wall termination or SEO actions for trimming.

In my endevours to solve my problem I have notice some things about Archicad that indicates to me that these "sweep" operations should be possible. When creating a wall the user creates a path for the wall to follow. When the wall is terminated the outline of the wall cross section is extruded along the path created. That is exactly how the sweep function works in an MCAD program. The difference in Archicad is that the profile the user creates by drawing the profile on the screen in the MCAD software is that the profile is contained in the "Setting" box. I could see adding a few more options (like number of hand rails, stringers, etc. but not limited to) which would then allow sweeping. So just like a wall the user would select/set all the necessary options and then create the placement path. Simply click the starting point and then using the pet pallet select what type of line to draw (straight or curved) and create the path to the width ending point. It should be noted that the "upper" termination points should be indicated as well, like when creating a roof. The same could be done with single plane roofs. Anyway thanks for all the help but I think I am going to be stuck with creating the corner seating in my MCAD package and transferring it to Archicad.

Re: Creating walls with varying heights

Barry Kelly — Fri, 12 Jan 2018 02:54:04 GMT

The images didn't attach.

As for the sweep it sounds exactly like what a 'complex profile' wall or beam can do.
You could also use the shell tool if the path is straight or an arc or the morph tool is another option.
There was a recent post on sweeping a morph around a door frame.
http://archicad-talk.graphisoft.com/viewtopic.php?t=30516

Barry.

Re: Creating walls with varying heights

Anonymous — Thu, 18 Jan 2018 18:28:33 GMT

Hello Barry:
Thanks for all the help. It turns out that I can import a part from my MCAD software (save as .3ds) and then import and convert it to a GDL part which I can then use to trim walls and such. The only issue with this is that the imported MCAD part has no BIM info except the material it is made with. It would be nice if it was possible to add the BIM info to the part while it was being converted to a GDL object by filling out a form during the process. Maybe you could pass that idea on to the GS guys/gals to see if it might be added. Having a feature that allows users to import parts from a 3ds file (which nearly all MCAD software can do) and then add the BIM info to would allow users to develop very complicated shapes (which can be burdensome in AC) easily in an MCAD product (like Solidworks as eg.). Anyway, got my problem solved for now.

Re: Creating walls with varying heights

Barry Kelly — Fri, 19 Jan 2018 01:31:19 GMT

DrWho wrote:
Maybe you could pass that idea on to the GS guys/gals to see if it might be added.

I would love to but unfortunately I only have the same contact with the GS guys/gals that you do.
Either contact your local distributor with the suggestion and/or make a wish here in the wishes section of the forum and see if you can get others to vote for it.

DrWho wrote:
Anyway, got my problem solved for now.

Glad to here it.
I would still like to see an image of what you are trying to achieve.

barry.

Re: Creating walls with varying heights

furtonb — Tue, 06 Feb 2018 18:18:27 GMT

Hi,

similar problem here - I need to create quite silly geometry, and I would like them to remain "live".
I have no issues with modeling, but the display of the SEO on model views is a bit confusing.
Subtraction (with up- or downwards as well), intersection shows up on a 3D document properly, addition doesn't (hidden lines, contours, etc.).

This is where the wall should appear dashed.
(EDIT: elevation from a 3D document) Like this:
(EDIT: same 3D document, addition operator detached, and showing as separate wall) The 3D model (insulation is wireframed for better understanding): When I morph the whole thing, it appears just fine, but I wish not to ("live" editability is a must now). A profiled wall is not an option, as the floor plan is irregular as well, and the shape has some weird bumps.

Is this the planned behaviour?

Re: Creating walls with varying heights

furtonb — Tue, 06 Feb 2018 18:26:43 GMT

I was able to attach the three images, so my 3D document setup is as follows: In the 3D view in wireframe, there is a weird representation of the part in question: There are random contour lines missing:

Re: Creating walls with varying heights

Barry Kelly — Wed, 07 Feb 2018 01:21:43 GMT

SEO is not shown in plan view so you won't see any dashed lines or cut elements.

I can't comment about the hidden/missing lines in 3D without experimenting (which I don't have time to do at the moment sorry).

Barry.

Re: Creating walls with varying heights

furtonb — Wed, 07 Feb 2018 07:00:29 GMT

I was familiar with the floor plan situation, this is about 3D documents, and addition only, others show the hidden lines as expected.

No worries, I just left the operator element as a separate object (shows up incorrect in section - the separation line remains, but I can live with that in this case), and all elevations + top views/RCPs are correct this way.

EDIT: Sorry, I went through my initial post, this is an elevation from a 3D document.